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Dec 21, 2009 -- 12:59PM, Herrozerro wrote:

Dec 21, 2009 -- 12:57PM, greymage001 wrote:

then my reply becomes. Why need a party just have 1 person play the fighter who can cast spells and thieve. everybody else can play wow while the fighter adventures with the bored gm.

isnt that why we play the game to get a few friends to fill roles? the options make it so you dont need a party. not very fun.

You are right, but too bad ritual casting and skill training are not apart of roles.

and thats what drives me nuts about 4e rules. the changes are not D&D in my opinion. Its miniature rules with a heavy slant toward combat. all the "rituals" that at one point could be used in or near combat cant. What exactly throws things out of balance for a caster to perform KNOCK while in combat?( and not have it take 100 rounds) as it was in previous editions. what exactly made this unblanced that it had to change?

Dec 21, 2009 -- 12:35PM, XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:

It may not improve "your" game but it just might improve his.

We aren't talking about my game, or his game, your game or anyones game. We are talking about THE game. He mentioned that he thought that strictly enforced limits on who can do certain actions is something he wants to see in 5E. I was just askinghow those changes would improve the game, if implimented into a new edition.

What exactly would it add? What would be the costs? Would it benifit the majority of players? Is it in line with current concepts of game design? There would be many factors to concider. Personally, I can't see it adding anything. All it would do is remove possibilities and make certain classes pretty much required in a party.

Dec 21, 2009 -- 1:08PM, wrecan wrote:

Dec 21, 2009 -- 12:57PM, greymage001 wrote:

then my reply becomes. Why need a party just have 1 person play the fighter who can cast spells and thieve. everybody else can play wow while the fighter adventures with the bored gm.

Because, just as in all prior editions, trying to cover all roles makes you master of none.  The fighter who spends all his feats on ritual training and skill training will never compare with a thief dedicated to Thievery or to a Wizard dedicated to Rituals.  And he'll be less effective that a Fighter who specializes in being a Defender.  Just like a 10th level fighter is better at fighting than an AD&D 4th/3rd/3rd Fighter/Cleric/Thief.

since the systems are competely different as far as what AC equates to what. A 10th level 4e character equivalent to what in 2e or 3e? 

playing on a map is great. i do like it to some extent. but in 4e you can not play without a map period. thats annoying.

more skills as in:

Engineering
Swimming ( an no not athletics where a person is just as good as climbing swimming)
Boyer / Fletcher
Weaponsmithing
Herbalist
Hunting
Juggliing
Lores (animal, monster, places etc)

this is a few. i am headin out from work. the skills list is just to small. since 4e is about choices. i dont see many and everybody knows them. why does every adventurer know even the slightest in diplomacy.