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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 1:30AM
#41
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Date Joined:
Dec 19, 2001
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Warlock is not a fair standard to evaluate the power of avenger, considering the fact that warlock is one of two strikers with the lowest DPR.
And after the introduction of AV2, infernal warlock, at least, can deal respectable damage with shadowrift dagger + Hellish Rebuke.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 1:38AM
#42
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2007
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Short answer: yes.
Long answer: yes, if the Avenger is supposed to be a Striker class. I'm not really seeing the big deal with this. A ranger with the Lethal Hunter feat will be rolling 2d8s once per round at Paragon tier (9 average damage), compared to 5-6 once per round from Painful Oath.
And don't forget something like called shot which adds +5 to a ranged ranger's damage...
Point is: avengers are supposed to be strikers, a feat that makes them better strikers is an appropriate feat.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 2:50AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Short answer: yes.
Long answer: yes, if the Avenger is supposed to be a Striker class. I'm not really seeing the big deal with this. A ranger with the Lethal Hunter feat will be rolling 2d8s once per round at Paragon tier (9 average damage), compared to 5-6 once per round from Painful Oath.
And don't forget something like called shot which adds +5 to a ranged ranger's damage...
Point is: avengers are supposed to be strikers, a feat that makes them better strikers is an appropriate feat.
And Dont forget that in order to have prime shot, most of the time, you will provoke OAs which is atleast a painful drawback as you have striker hp and only average AC. Point is, avengers have a striker feature that they can use and the best accuracy in the game which adds dpr. If they didnt have those, then yes they needed this feat. As it stands, they don't. Avengers currently have really good hp, tied for best AC, best in accuracy, and damage that is atleast close to the other strikers.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 3:42AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Nov 26, 2008
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And Dont forget that in order to have prime shot, most of the time, you will provoke OAs which is atleast a painful drawback as you have striker hp and only average AC.
And conveniently, Archers get Defensive Mobility for free. Prime shot notwithstanding, Hunter's Quarry in Paragon adds at minimum more DPR than Painful Oath.
Point is, avengers have a striker feature that they can use and the best accuracy in the game which adds dpr.
By "striker feature that they can use" I hope you don't mean the Censures. Censure of Pursuit is not a once-per-round occurrence. It triggers infrequently and adds very little DPR overall.
If they didnt have those, then yes they needed this feat. As it stands, they don't. Avengers currently have really good hp, tied for best AC, best in accuracy, and damage that is atleast close to the other strikers.
Avengers were tied for best AC pre-errata; post-errata, they are not. As for damage, the math has been done before: Avengers do okay in Heroic and lag behind substantially around Paragon. They need this feat to catch up.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 3:54AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2004
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In the new Avenger Essentials artcle:
Painful Oath
Pre req: 11th level, avenger, oath of enmity feature
Benefit: The first time you hit your oath of enmity target each turn, you deal extra radiant and necrotic damage equal to your wisdom modifier.
Seriously? Add your main attack stat as radiant damage to all your attacks (once per turn notwithstanding)?
Did they really think avengers needed this? They just took away +2 AC for a feat because it was overpowered but they thought that a massive damage boost and adding radiant to all your attacks was fine?
Sorry to vent. But this is getting ridiculous.
I would not be surprised if there will be some Errata in the final Dragon. But we'll see.
If there is, I expect to see something like. "If you hit with the first attack roll before using your oath of Emnity reroll, you deal extra radiant and necrotic damage equal to your wisdom modifier." That would basically half the bonus damage on average and I think that would be more in line with other damage boosting feats. Of course, it still stacks with them, so the perception of "mandatory" will probably never change as long as there is a feat that gives the Avenger extra damage that stacks with other such feats.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 4:00AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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And Dont forget that in order to have prime shot, most of the time, you will provoke OAs which is atleast a painful drawback as you have striker hp and only average AC.
And conveniently, Archers get Defensive Mobility for free. Prime shot notwithstanding, Hunter's Quarry in Paragon adds at minimum more DPR than Painful Oath.
+2 AC only vs OAs is not as great as you make it sound. Also, it doesnt apply after your turn is done and the monster decides to hit you for dealing that much damage to it. Quarry is good, but again, avengers have their own striker feature.
Point is, avengers have a striker feature that they can use and the best accuracy in the game which adds dpr.
By "striker feature that they can use" I hope you don't mean the Censures. Censure of Pursuit is not a once-per-round occurrence. It triggers infrequently and adds very little DPR overall.
The Censures add 6-7 in heroic or 1-5 for unity avengers. I already stated how a pursuit and a unity avenger have little trouble getting their censure. Isolating, i have conceded have it rough.
If they didnt have those, then yes they needed this feat. As it stands, they don't. Avengers currently have really good hp, tied for best AC, best in accuracy, and damage that is atleast close to the other strikers.
Avengers were tied for best AC pre-errata; post-errata, they are not. As for damage, the math has been done before: Avengers do okay in Heroic and lag behind substantially around Paragon. They need this feat to catch up.
Really? Before errata, they were the king of AC, now they are tied with barbarians. In heroic with improved armor of faith and 18 dex/int, they have the equivalent of plate, AC 18 at 1st. At paragon, its plate and light shield. At epic its plate and heavy shield. Thats not including the ever popular rhythm blade parrying dagger which puts them tied with barbarian for highest ac. They also still have defender level hp to top off their invincibleness.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 4:06AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2007
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I would not be surprised if there will be some Errata in the final Dragon. But we'll see.
If there is, I expect to see something like. "If you hit with the first attack roll before using your oath of Emnity reroll, you deal extra radiant and necrotic damage equal to your wisdom modifier." That would basically half the bonus damage on average and I think that would be more in line with other damage boosting feats. Of course, it still stacks with them, so the perception of "mandatory" will probably never change as long as there is a feat that gives the Avenger extra damage that stacks with other such feats.
First of, I would be very surprised if they DID change it, as I perceive no reason whatsoever to do so: it fits with the class' role, it has a restriction that prevents it from being broken and the fact that it's on the good side is set of by the fact that it compensates for an existing lack and finally it makes it more attractive to play a real avenger and not one of those twin strike travesties.
Secondly I'm afraid your proposed errata does not work as avengers don't get rerolls, they get double rolls.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 4:15AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2007
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Thats not including the ever popular rhythm blade parrying dagger which puts them tied with barbarian for highest ac.
Now you're just reaching to make your point, not even LDB's master of defense build used a parrying dagger.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 4:21AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Thats not including the ever popular rhythm blade parrying dagger which puts them tied with barbarian for highest ac.
Now you're just reaching to make your point, not even LDB's master of defense build used a parrying dagger.
How am I reaching? It doesnt intefere with anything an avenger does, unlike a swordmage who still has a restriction on their ac class feature. You can still wield a waraxe or bastard sword in their main hand with an avenger.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 08, 2009 - 4:27AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2007
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Thats not including the ever popular rhythm blade parrying dagger which puts them tied with barbarian for highest ac.
Now you're just reaching to make your point, not even LDB's master of defense build used a parrying dagger.
How am I reaching? It doesnt intefere with anything an avenger does, unlike a swordmage who still has a restriction on their ac class feature. You can still wield a waraxe or bastard sword in their main hand with an avenger.
You are reaching by claiming it to be popular while I have very very very rarely seen an avenger build actually use it (and I have seen most of them on these boards) as it in fact does interfere as choosing those weapons would make a sub-par striker even more subpar.
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