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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 2:18PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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I think that people throw around the term "Feat Tax" too eagerly...
I agree with this. Especially where feats like Versatile Master or Leather Armor Prof. are concerned, where they are really good but there are some builds who won't use them.
But this one...yeah. It's mandatory.
. . . I don't even know how to respond to this post. I have tried starting this response no less than ten different ways. I just don't understand how this post makes any sense at all. You agree with me that the term is thrown around to lightly, and then you immediately proceed to suggest that... I don't even know, I can't wrap my mind around this post without considering the possibilities either that it's mocking me or that it's hypocritical.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 2:29PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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. . . I don't even know how to respond to this post. I have tried starting this response no less than ten different ways. I just don't understand how this post makes any sense at all. You agree with me that the term is thrown around to lightly, and then you immediately proceed to suggest that... I don't even know, I can't wrap my mind around this post without considering the possibilities either that it's mocking me or that it's hypocritical.
Allright, let me explain it then: I agree that the term 'feat tax' is used too much. I then lay out a couple examples of things that are NOT mandatory but people routinely claim they are. I then, in a fairly ironic flair, assert that this feat IS mandatory.
It is not a feat tax though. A feat tax is a feat that gives characters something they should have gotten for free. It is a patch in feat form. But avengers didn't need this. It is therefor not a feat tax so much as an overpowered feat.
I was not mocking. I wasn't even disagreeing with you unless your previous post asserted that this feat is not mandatory. But mandatory and feat tax are not the same thing.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 2:36PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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Ah, all right, I understand now. You're distinguishing between the feat being overpowered and thus "mandatory" and it the feat actually being a necessity and thus a feat tax. I understand now, I apologize for the confusion. The way I had originally read your post, it looked like you were saying "Yeah, 'feat tax' is thrown around too often... But this is totally a feat tax!"
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 3:51PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2008
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Yes. Painful Oath is necessary.
Prior to this feat, many of us had been saying since PHB2's release that Avenger damage issues popped up at Paragon primarily because of a lack of feat support. The secondary issue-- a lack of damage/striker oriented "in class" PPs-- has been addressed somewhat in the Essentials article, as well. With some of the new feats coming out, Avenger PPs gain a degree of appeal because of the option to expand crit range at 21st without needing to pump a tertiary stat or select a PP to get the job done. Taking a PP like Oathsworn or Favored Soul will also be less bleak, because Avengers are no longer relying on PP choice for 90% of their damage increase at Paragon vs Heroic.
I should also point out two things worth mentioning:
1. Painful Oath doesn't catapult the Avenger into contention for top DPR. In fact, they're probably still armwrestling with Warlocks for last place.
2. With the introduction of Painful Oath, Avengers now have... (drumroll)...
ONE strong direct damage feat through Paragon.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 4:12PM
#25
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If you don't think that this is a feat tax then you never will.
Every single Avenger will take this feat at level 11 or they will not be optimal. The one possible exception would be some sort of odd Half elf twin strike build with no wis mod.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 4:15PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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If you don't think that this is a feat tax then you never will.
Every single Avenger will take this feat at level 11 or they will not be optimal. The one possible exception would be some sort of odd Half elf twin strike build with no wis mod.
To this, I have to respond with what Eric888 already said.
Feat that everybody wants to take =/= Feat tax
Those are not the same thing.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 4:19PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2008
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I'd agree that this isn't a feat tax. It's simply a stellar feat. I think you could say that Painful Oath is to Avengers as the Two Weapon Fighting feat string is to Rangers. Necessary? No. Present in every build you'll ever see forever? Yup.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 4:56PM
#28
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It's a feat that is required to do your job.
Nobody is going to argue that Paragon+ Avengers are where they should be for damage without this feat, even with it they are probably behind the curve. The question is if you want to do less damage than your defender or less damage than your controller.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 4:58PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2006
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Yes, it was.
Avengers have the accuracy schtick downpat, but for the most part, do the least damage of any striker, even warlocks out DPR them.
This is because nine times out of ten they can't get their striker damage bonus.
Avengers had the highest AC mantle but that got taken away. As a striker class, getting more damage for less AC is an acceptable compromise for me.
I hardily disagree. Avengers dont have the worst damage by any means. They do as much as any other weapon user out there because they benefit from the same bonuses like weapon focus, iron armbands, etc....
Avengers still tie with barbarians for the highest ac in the game, so getting an overpowered damage feat isnt an "acceptable compromise". As far as marked scourge and holy strike goes, not every build will use them because they are based on optional secondary stats. Example, my str/dex tempset fighter with a 10 wis will never take marked scourge. But painful oath uses a Primary stat which every avenger will have (save the famous half elf avenger twin striker). 9 times out of 10 avengers dont get their censure bonus? I again disagree unless something odd is going on. Unity avengers will get theirs as long as his party members focus fire and he isnt the only melee. Pursuit avengers will get theirs unless the monster is foolish enough to stand and fight the avenger. When you have a ridiculously(less so than 2-3 weeks ago) high AC, why would any competent monster
stand there and try to ineffectually hit you? Chances are they will move and fight someone they can hit thereby triggering the censure. Isolating avengers... I will agree that they have it rough....
Also warlocks do not out damage anyone, even with called shot(which if you have read it right will mean you provoke most of the time like my archer does)
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4 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 5:49PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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It's a feat that is required to do your job.
Nobody is going to argue that Paragon+ Avengers are where they should be for damage without this feat, even with it they are probably behind the curve. The question is if you want to do less damage than your defender or less damage than your controller.
Keep in mind that avangers, on average, will hit 50% more often and crit 100% more often than other classes. With that in mind you should look at their damage as if it was 55% higher when comparing it to other strikers.
A level 11 avenger with 20-21 wisdom, a generic +3 fullblade, weapon focus, and +2 iron armbands, deals 1d12+12 with his at-will. Compared to other strikers that is an average (+55%) of 28.675. Which is very comparable and far far surpasses warlocks.
Avengers suffer from a pretty disapointing collection of at-wills and oath seems more restrictive than it should, but their damage was fine. If this article gave them a useful at-will and eased some of the restrictions on oath, I would not be complaining. But this feat went too far. It was not needed.
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