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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 11:07AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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I think that people throw around the term "Feat Tax" too eagerly...
I'm not a fan of the frequency with which the term is used, but I can't imagine any Avenger not taking this at 11th level. Would your striker like a +5(ish) bonus to damage at 11th level? Who's going to say no?
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 11:14AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2007
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I think that people throw around the term "Feat Tax" too eagerly...
I agree that people are throwing the term around to easily, but only because Avengers were ALREADY feat taxed with Leather Armor Proficiency.
A feat tax is a feat that is overpowered in direct comparison to other feats of its level, but that isn't overpowered in practice because it directly compensates for something unbalanced in the other direction. Avenger's once had a feat tax because they couldn't keep up with striker damage (short of degenerate Versatile Master Critfishing), and so the too-good boost to their AC balanced them by letting them serve as off-tanks. Now, without that benefit, instead that taxed feat goes to a too-good boost to damage; this balances them by letting them keep up with other strikers' damages.
Incidentally, the thing that bothers me most about this feat is the part where it's radiant/necrotic damage. Notwithstanding the argument as to whether all of their powers have the radiant Keyword, Undead suck enough simply by having a divine character in the party. Was it really necessary to make 100% of the Avenger's attacks trigger radiant vulnerability?
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 11:21AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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...Avengers were ALREADY feat taxed with Leather Armor Proficiency.
Oh come on, that was never a feat tax. Avengers always had perfectly adequate AC and otherwise functioned perfectly well without armor proficiencies higher than Cloth. That's like saying that Wizards and Sorcerers are feat taxed with Leather or that Warlocks and Sword-Mages are feat taxed with Hide. I could possibly be convinced that this Painful Oath is a "feat tax", but the term is still thrown around much too frequently, and pointing to another occasion when the term was unreasonably thrown around will not help your case.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 11:22AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2008
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I think that people throw around the term "Feat Tax" too eagerly...
I agree that people are throwing the term around to easily, but only because Avengers were ALREADY feat taxed with Leather Armor Proficiency.
A feat tax is a feat that is overpowered in direct comparison to other feats of its level, but that isn't overpowered in practice because it directly compensates for something unbalanced in the other direction. Avenger's once had a feat tax because they couldn't keep up with striker damage (short of degenerate Versatile Master Critfishing), and so the too-good boost to their AC balanced them by letting them serve as off-tanks. Now, without that benefit, instead that taxed feat goes to a too-good boost to damage; this balances them by letting them keep up with other strikers' damages.
Incidentally, the thing that bothers me most about this feat is the part where it's radiant/necrotic damage. Notwithstanding the argument as to whether all of their powers have the radiant Keyword, Undead suck enough simply by having a divine character in the party. Was it really necessary to make 100% of the Avenger's attacks trigger radiant vulnerability?
One other issue with the 'radiant' keyword is that it makes MC Paragon Paths that grant a larger crit range when using the Radiant or Nec keyword more overpowered.
/whine I'm still looking for a Avenger Paragon Path that's better then MC and taking someone elses class's Paragon path.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 12:05PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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I agree that people are throwing the term around to easily, but only because Avengers were ALREADY feat taxed with Leather Armor Proficiency.
Except it doesn't work any more, so perfect time for any paragon Avenger to retrain Leather Armor for Painful Oath.
Incidentally, the thing that bothers me most about this feat is the part where it's radiant/necrotic damage. Notwithstanding the argument as to whether all of their powers have the radiant Keyword, Undead suck enough simply by having a divine character in the party. Was it really necessary to make 100% of the Avenger's attacks trigger radiant vulnerability?
If the only divine striker is not going to trigger undead vulnerability, who would? It would be embarrassing I think if the paladin or cleric were throwing around more damage against undead, than the Avenger (which the cleric already has the upper hand with AoE's).
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 12:11PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2008
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I find it VERY ironic that some of the people who defended pre-errata Marked Scourge are now turning around and decrying Painful Oath. I recongnize a few names in this thread.
Avengers needed this feat (and Fighters did not need Marked Scourge, in any form). Avenger DPR numbers, time and time again, had fallen well below that of other strikers, to the point that it was embarrassing (in fact, the Paladin had been a better "divine striker" up to this point). Feat tax? Sure. But it's not like Avengers had good feat support before this article, anyway.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 1:00PM
#17
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Incidentally, the thing that bothers me most about this feat is the part where it's radiant/necrotic damage. Notwithstanding the argument as to whether all of their powers have the radiant Keyword, Undead suck enough simply by having a divine character in the party. Was it really necessary to make 100% of the Avenger's attacks trigger radiant vulnerability?
If the only divine striker is not going to trigger undead vulnerability, who would? It would be embarrassing I think if the paladin or cleric were throwing around more damage against undead, than the Avenger (which the cleric already has the upper hand with AoE's).
Agreed. Most of their powers already have radiant damage, so it's not really adding much. I'm just glad it's not pure radiant.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 1:19PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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One other issue with the 'radiant' keyword is that it makes MC Paragon Paths that grant a larger crit range when using the Radiant or Nec keyword more overpowered.
I might be wrong but I don't think adding radiant damage applies the radiant keyword. Gloves of Eldritch Admixture would actually be a good item if it worked that way.
I guess I was in the minority but I didn't think avengers were seen as lackluster on damage. Hitting more often seemed pretty good. Maybe not as insane as a ranger, but what was?
I guess as someone who has been playing a charisma warlock since 4e came out, I just get really angry when the other strikers get stuff like this or iron armbands and we have yet to see either an essentials or class acts article. I am glad to hear one is coming out on wednesday but at this point I don't have much confidence that my class will ever be able to stand up to the other strikers.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 1:26PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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I think that people throw around the term "Feat Tax" too eagerly...
I agree with this. Especially where feats like Versatile Master or Leather Armor Prof. are concerned, where they are really good but there are some builds who won't use them.
But this one...yeah. It's mandatory.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 07, 2009 - 1:28PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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That, and if I can ever roll a 19+. It's pretty amazing that everyone in my party crits more often than I do when I crit on 19+ rolling 2d20. Sad.
Tell me about it. My avenger got a vicious fullblade (only 2nd-level at the moment) and I've played two whole sessions and about six or seven entire combat encounters without a single crit.
And on top of that, he has elven accuracy which I make sure to use even if I don't have to.
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