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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 12:51PM
#141
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2001
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That would depend entirely on the monster, now, wouldn't it? Some of those NAD attacks at those levels get pretty nasty, and Pit Fighter won't have Avenger utilities and defenses to help him out. He needs a party more than an Avenger does.
Mr. Pit Fighter's Ref defense is in the tank. Even at Paragon, there are attacks that will Restrain him and slow him down - no teleporting powers, you see.
Even so, LDB is correct in saying that not all Rangers are built like his Stormwarden or even his Pit Fighter. In fact, there are some cases in which his Pit Fighter is going to be kind of useless in a fight.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 1:01PM
#142
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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That would depend entirely on the monster, now, wouldn't it?
The "non-analyzable morass" I was refering to. (Although over on Enworld, there's a guy who's trying. Except that he's coded up a real PC against a overly simple soldier)
Some of those NAD attacks at those levels get pretty nasty, and Pit Fighter won't have Avenger utilities and defenses to help him out. He needs a party more than an Avenger does.
*laugh*. His AC is way higher than my AC (cloth wearing, Dex 14 at Epic. Yeah. Bout that.) He's a bit shy of shrug-it-off utility powers, but so am I (I had to take positioning utility powers to keep my Oath working. He just needs to be next to his target). He spikes better than I do, I out DPR him. I've got a few more HP and surges, but it's pretty negligible. (He's got toughness, I get more HP/level)
Mr. Pit Fighter's Ref defense is in the tank. Even at Paragon, there are attacks that will Restrain him and slow him down - no teleporting powers, you see.
My Ref is also in the tank (see 14 Dex). I too will be slowed and restrained. And in the specific build in question, won't have many teleports. Because to keep my damage up, I had to take the same powers he has.
In fact, there are some cases in which his Pit Fighter is going to be kind of useless in a fight.
As opposed to an Avenger with basically no ranged options? I think they'll even be the same fights.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 1:12PM
#143
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2001
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No Dex and no Int? Would that be your Strength Avenger? I'd like to see that. The Power Attack Avenger Build Component is versatile, though, and it needs no great Strength. Its AC should be roughly comparable. At the level 11 snapshot, the Power Attack Avenger out-DPRs him by about 7 points or thereabouts. Defenses are slightly better on the Avenger, mobility is greatly better. He out-spikes the Avenger, but cannot heal on his own. Oh, and PAP's Ref defense is 2 points higher.
My Ref is also in the tank (see 14 Dex). I too will be slowed and restrained. And in the specific build in question, won't have many teleports. Because to keep my damage up, I had to take the same powers he has.
Avenger Utilities have teleport functions and they don't generally affect DPR at all. You'll have him beat in that, at least.
In any case, a comparison at level 30 is kind of moot, don't you think? How many people play at JUST level 30?
As opposed to an Avenger with basically no ranged options? I think they'll even be the same fights.
Not necessarily. Avengers can shift (through difficult terrain even, as an Elf), fly, and teleport. intervening terrain isn't as big of a deal for them. Favored Souls can even fly. They have at-wills that can pull opponents down, or attack at range.
Of course, his Pit Fighter does have Twin Strike, so he can attack with his Dex, if he absolutely had to.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 1:24PM
#144
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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No Dex and no Int? Would that be your Strength Avenger?
Yep. Revenant Half-Elf Avenger(Fighter)/Pitfighter/Eternal Seeker. Looks something like
Wil
Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Wil the Fisherman, level 30
Revenant, Avenger, Pit Fighter, Eternal Seeker
Build: Pursuing Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Unity
Seeking Destiny: Return from the Shadowfell
Choose your Race in Life: Half-Elf
Background: Chessenta (Chessenta Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 24, Con 16, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 24, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.
AC: 43 Fort: 39 Reflex: 35 Will: 39
HP: 204 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 51
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +21, Stealth +29, Athletics +27, Perception +29, Intimidate +29
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +18, Arcana +16, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +22, Endurance +20, Heal +22, History +16, Insight +22, Nature +22, Streetwise +15, Thievery +18
FEATS
Level 1: Half-Elf Soul
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 4: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Double axe)
Level 10: Battle Awareness
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Painful Oath
Level 14: Vistani Heritage
Level 16: Enmity's Eye
Level 18: Avenging Surge
Level 20: Deadly Axe
Level 21: Hand of Divine Guidance
Level 22: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 24: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 26: Divine Mastery
Level 28: Improved Initiative
Level 30: Epic Resurgence
POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Pursuit
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Dilettante: Twin Strike
Seeker's Lore: Platinum Scales
Avenger encounter 1: Relentless Attack (retrained to Avenging Echo at Level 3)
Avenger daily 1: Strength of Many
Avenger utility 2: Righteous Pursuit
Avenger encounter 3: Fury's Advance
Avenger daily 5: Menacing Presence
Avenger utility 6: Avenger's Resolve
Avenger encounter 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger daily 9: Aspect of Might
Avenger utility 10: Leading Step
Avenger encounter 13: Crimson Stride (replaces Angelic Alacrity)
Avenger daily 15: Temple of Brilliance (replaces Menacing Presence)
Avenger utility 16: Astral Cloak
Avenger encounter 17: Vengeful Parry (replaces Inexorable Pursuit)
Avenger daily 19: Blade of Astral Hosts (replaces Strength of Many)
Avenger utility 22: Ghostly Vengeance
Avenger encounter 23: Armor Splinter (replaces Fury's Advance)
Avenger daily 25: Quicksilver Blade (replaces Blade of Astral Hosts)
Avenger encounter 27: Hurricane of Blades (replaces Crimson Stride)
Avenger daily 29: Follow-up Blow (replaces Aspect of Might)
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Grasping Javelin +2, Cincture of the Dragon Spirit (heroic tier), Power Jewel (heroic tier), Boots of Striding (heroic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Cannith Goggles (heroic tier), Radiant Double axe +6, Siberys Shard of Radiance (epic tier), Ghostphase Starweave Armor +6, Symbol of Victory +2, Quickhit Braces (epic tier), Shadow Band (epic tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Zephyr Boots (epic tier), Solitaire (Violet) (epic tier), Ghostwalk Tattoo (epic tier), Elven Cloak +6
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
I'm not gonna pretend he's fully optimized, I think he doesn't suck though. But ... he's not as utility filled as one might think. When you build a character, a lot of potential utility has to collapse into actual choices. 
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 1:35PM
#145
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2001
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Okay. That's weird.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 2:21PM
#146
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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This may be one of the very few wielders of the Double Axe that is CharOp-approved.
That being said, though, I doubt that Improved Initiative will do you as much good as Robust Defenses. Squishy NAD's are squishy.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 2:42PM
#147
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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This may be one of the very few wielders of the Double Axe that is CharOp-approved.
That being said, though, I doubt that Improved Initiative will do you as much good as Robust Defenses. Squishy NAD's are squishy.
I'll take that suggestion. I did build him for Rocket-launcher Tag, but it's a bit ridiculous. (And Improved Init won't be enough to regularly win Init)
I had a double axe because I figured I could get mastery with it (at 24th, Improve Con instead of Wis). Given mastery and Deadly Axe, the Double Axe had the best DPR numbers.
Then D381 came out and I no longer needed to. Given D381, I might be able to reduce my Con some, and there may be a better weapon.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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3 years ago ::
Jan 12, 2010 - 9:57PM
#148
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2008
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Roxlimm--
Do you feel that Avengers-- a 'Striker' class-- should have to optimize to hit the expected benchmarks?
I don't.
Painful Oath is the type of feat which helps non-optimizers get the desired performance out of their Striker class without having to optimize. Without it, they're basically forced to optimize in order to do their job.
This is what I've continually tried to point out. The build I posted wasn't optimized-- that's correct-- but the feat slots listed were either necessary (most of the ones in Heroic are 'standard issue', and few folks actually go without things like Paragon/Robust Defenses), or contributed to damage-- and the build still fell short of 60 DPR. While you felt vindicated in pointing out that the build wasn't optimized for damage, the fact is, it still does seek out damage with many of its feat, has a Striker base class, and fails to meet expected benchmarks.
Again-- 'Strikers' shouldn't have to optimize to be Strikers. Optimizing should be the difference between being a Striker and being an optimized Striker.
This is the same expectation people rightly have of Leaders and Defenders. They do their jobs right out of the box. Optimizing just makes them *better*.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2010 - 1:14AM
#149
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Date Joined:
Apr 28, 2001
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Alright then. What's the DPR of a Ruthless Ruffian Rogue going for Maces and the Strong Arm Enforcer Paragon Path? If we're talking benchmarking unoptimized characters, then let's mock one up in a relatively middle-of-the-road Striker class that's roughly similar to an Avenger and see how it does.
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3 years ago ::
Jan 13, 2010 - 3:15AM
#150
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Date Joined:
Dec 19, 2001
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Everyone uses 20-40-60 DPR standard.
It's ok in itself.
But it is not ok, when you deal similar damage to that of the party's fighter, or much less damage than the party's ranger, rogue or barbarian. And they don't have to give up PP powers.
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