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3 years ago ::
Dec 04, 2009 - 11:18PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2007
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In fact, nobody grants divine spells – divine characters get their power from their faith.
No, divine characters usually get their powers from a ritual.
Pages 61-62 of the Player's Handbook explains this for clerics.
Pages 90-91 for paladins.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 1:46AM
#42
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2003
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Full self-disclosure: Both. .. There are genuine ambiguities within the official flavor/mechanics. Plus. Personally, I dislike 'worshiping' creatures who have power over me (or my character). I despise loss of power. I dislike the 'servile' classes, that must cowtow to a 'more-powerful' creature. Such a relationship is slavery, obsequiousness, dehumanization ... disgusting.
Personally, only *infinity* (including ones own infinite potential) is worthy of worship. Worshiping a finite creature - with its limitations and errors - disgusts me. The moment an 'object' of worship becomes finite, it repulses me. It isnt plausible for me (or my character) to worshiping a fallible creature. Its disgusting.
Well this certainly speaks volumes for why your take such EXTREME exception to the default divine class. Viewed through this lens all of your spite makes much more sense. That said, and while what follow is hash it is not my intent to be insulting, the only thing I find disgusting is how needlessly narrow minded your opinion is.
You seem to have a complete lack of understanding of the meaning of FAITH. Faith doesn't care whether the object of said faith is finite/infinite or perfect/imperfect. Faith only cares that one put TRUST in something beyond one's own personal abilities. Furthermore, faith in the gods of 4e is not so foolish as you make it out to be. Yes the gods are finite, they have limits, and they can even make mistakes, but compared to a typical mortal they might as well be infinite. They operate at a level of power and consciousness beyond what most mortals could ever hope to comprehend. The fact that only the greatest of heroes (high epic level) even come close matching their power speaks volumes, especially as no single hero comes close without the aid of equally powerful allies (fellow PCs). Last, but certainly not least, you show a distinct lack of ability to separate yourself from your character. D&D is an RPG, and a very important part of that experience is taking on the ROLE of a persona that is not necessarily your own. Your real world beliefs should not interfere with your ability to play a fictional character. Im not the only one who feels this way. Many have voiced similar objections.
You might not be the only person to take objection to the default presumptions of the divine power source, but you are certainly one of if not the most vocal protesters on these boards in that regard. Further more, your posts on the subject seem to do little to garner support for your ideas, instead seaming to mostly stir up animosity against you. This is at best non-productive, and may in fact be counterproductive to your desired goals. Especially as ,based on the general lack of complaints, most people are indeed satisfied with the current default divine presumptions of deific worship.
That is exactly the official ambiguity Im talking about: the creatures of the Astral Sea, themselves, dont actually grant the Divine powers.
So, what grants the powers? I say, the energy of the plane itself, which the 'beings' tap.
I'm not sure that the idea that DIVINE=ASTRAL is entirely viable, seeing as not every god even resides within the Astral Sea, such as Lolth (The Abyss) or the Raven Queen (Shadowfel). Heck Vecna is not only resides in the NATURAL world, but he is also not of the Astral See to begin with, being instead an ascended mortal.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 6:11AM
#43
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Haldrick I would like to point you to the Blood of Vol from Eberron, it might be something you like. But I disagree with what you want from the devine fluff. This is a fanatasy game, and almost every fantasy setting has gods and religions, and many have characters who are given powers by them. To change the set up of the devine in the way you want would destroy this trope. I understand your point of view Haldrick, and hold a similar one myself, but this is a game about fantasy, and that requires certain archetypes. If you have a problem with the fluff, change it for you story/character or don't play divine. I tend to dislike divine characters myself, but have made a few I enjoy. In the end it's a game, and do what you have to to enjoy it, but WotC has to please as many people possible with each aspect of the game, and someone will always be disappointed when they aren't part of the majority being pleased.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 7:20AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Jan 13, 2009
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I apologize if this is repetition, but Ardent is not a noun! How can you be an ardent?
Anyway, I'm gonna bet that this class will be a divine class, either melee striker or defender. And I can guarantee you that if this is the case, I will be referring to the class as a Templar, because "Ardent" is a retarded name for a class.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 7:29AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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I apologize if this is repetition, but Ardent is not a noun! How can you be an ardent?
The same way you can be a Reverend.
It's being used as an adjectival noun.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 12:37PM
#46
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< Tharag: Viewed through this lens all of your spite makes much more sense. >
'Spite'. Your insult is noted.
I have no spite. I want freedom to define my characters with flavor that appeals to me.
I want to refluff my Cleric characters just as easily as I can refluff my Bard characters. Without these stupid gods.
< It is not my intent to be insulting, the only thing I find disgusting is how needlessly narrow minded your opinion is. >
Obviously you intend to be insulting.
'The only thing I find disgusting is how needlessly narrow minded your opinion is.' Why must you force your gods on my games? Why do you refuse other players their own Divine character concepts? Why do you seek to interfere with spiritual freedom? Let players choose whatever spiritual tradition appeals to them. Why must you force your religious opinions on everyone else? 'How needlessly narrow minded your opinion is'!
< You seem to have a complete lack of understanding of the meaning of FAITH. >
You seem to have a complete lack of understanding of, different players have different TASTES.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 12:50PM
#47
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By the way, I hated the Warlock class for the same reason. Except, a recent Dragon article fixed the problem. Now, instead of groveling to some overlord master, the article opens the door to share the collective power of a community of equals. Instead of one big source - the Warlock can alternatively have many small sources. The player has more room to fluff whatever Warlock concept em wants.
Regarding Divine classes, the Divine power source needs to be accessable without intermediary creatures.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 1:02PM
#48
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By the way, I hated the Warlock class for the same reason. Except, a recent Dragon article fixed the problem. Now, instead of groveling to some overlord master, the article opens the door to share the collective power of a community of equals. Instead of one big source - the Warlock can alternatively have many small sources. The player has more room to fluff whatever Warlock concept em wants.
Regarding Divine classes, the Divine power source needs to be accessable without intermediary creatures.
To you. but to most players the idea of a cleric is the idea of a priest given power from the gods. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean most don't, there is a reason the cleric has stuck around so long. If you don't like it you are free to change it for your character, but don't expect the everyone else to be ok with it. I prefer the idea of divine character's who get power from faith alone, this was one thing I loved about Eberrron when it came out, is even the faithful couldn't prove the gods, it was truely faith. I love this idea, and other then one idea for an invoker/avenger i'm kicking around it's what i always use. This does not mean I think it should be the standard, because I know most players want the divine to get power directly from the gods.
As for warlocks, I made one whose pact wasn't his doing but rather, a deal made far down the line in his family. He saw it more as a curse, and tried to use it salvage his family name rather than walk the same path as his ancestors. Another friend of mine played another warlock who had been granted power at the hands of an orginization to fufill a prophecy, one he actively fought to prevent.
Fluff should inspire not limit. Change it as you need.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 1:03PM
#49
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You seem to have a complete lack of understanding of, different players have different TASTES.
I'm only seeing one player interested in that particular flavor- You. Would you care to name (not handwave "plenty of people", I mean actually name) 5 other players (preferably at least 2 from here on the board) who feel the same way?
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3 years ago ::
Dec 05, 2009 - 1:44PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Sep 27, 2009
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I have no spite. I want freedom to define my characters with flavor that appeals to me.
I want to refluff my Cleric characters just as easily as I can refluff my Bard characters. Without these stupid gods.
Why must you force your gods on my games? Why do you refuse other players their own Divine character concepts? Why do you seek to interfere with spiritual freedom? Let players choose whatever spiritual tradition appeals to them. Why must you force your religious opinions on everyone else? 'How needlessly narrow minded your opinion is'!
You seem to have a complete lack of understanding of, different players have different TASTES.
You are free to define your characters. No one is telling you not to, if you want, go right ahead.
You can refluff your clerics, hell, you could refluff bards to need gods if you saw fit, so stop complaining about it.
He isn't refusing other players :cough cough you cough cough: from their own Divine character concepts, thats you, you are the one who doesn't want spiritual freedom. Players are free to choose whatever they want, they can worship banjo the sock puppet if they want, even draw power from him. And that last bit about religious opinions sounds more like you think this is RealLife and not D&D. We are not forcing you to do ANYTHING AT ALL. So seriously, stop whining, grow up, and play. I'm tired of hearing this repeatedly, and if this is insulting, wonderful, maybe that will work.
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