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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 8:13PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2005
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Actualy I have played since the ground up with DnD.I also was lucky enough not see this class abuse every one speaks of.Sure i saw the fights where the wiz stands back and blows everything away but you know what I have seen it just as much in the new game.Its just about the same if you ask me from this addition to the last.If the spellcaster in general is made properly they can step up in a room let loose an AOE and butcher everything before any one has has a chance.
In fact i would say that there is a better chance in 4e to do the wizard blow them all down strategy at early levels then before.Wizards start off with some good Aoes at early levels compared to before.I know from my own experiences in 4e thus far that this is true.Watched the wizard take out rooms full of kobolds,goblins and orcs before anyone had a chance to do anything.He did it with encounter powers so really he could just keep doing that the whole adventure.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 8:20PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2005
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I like the one post about the combat system.I though I was the only one that felt like fights took longer and that 4E is much more like a board game or video game.I believe this new system is more of a money ploy then anything else really.If you make a game that needs to have maps figures etc to show important positioning etc then people are going to spend loads on figurines and other accessories.Remember the days where you did not need maps or figures at all?Everything was done with description,imagination and roleplaying.Some times I kind of miss those days.
I know that I have had some trouble in game with open terrain fights.Having enemies get hit with back to back effects that slide them 10 squares is a pain in the ass if they are going t get moved off the bored.Then you have the problem of having to either expand the board if you have the room/accessories or you have to do the lame scroll the battlefield.In many ways the new combat system just seems plain annoying.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 8:34PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2005
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As someone else mentioned about just switching back to another addition I may end up doing that.Its just a matter of tracking down the basic books again and maybe the class books as well.I have been toying with an idea that may be perfect for myself and my group.Just abandoning the DnD product all together at least in its material form.
The Hero system has been around almost as long as DnD.It is one of the best systems around for customizing your characters.I have a ton of champions stuff and the game is much like gurps.You can fit any genre into the system and it works great.I can still keep it a fantasy game and even a DnD game since I just have to transplain the world,races etc into the new system.Since everything can be built from the ground up for powers there are no restrictions on what your character can be or do.There is just a power cap to design under and off you go your imagination is your limit.
The Hero system would definately bypass many problems that I am having with the 4e.Unlimited customizing of characters and it even keeps all characters balanced perfectly.It does do away with levels and classes all together.Characters will all be unique in there concept but you can still make a DnD class or race very easily.With the dnd books that I already have as a baseline that would be so easy.You still gain experience which can be used to develop new abilities/powers or increase the ones you already have.
No final decision as of yet still having people bounce opinions and ideas off me.I am guessing it will either be altering 4E,tracking down 3.5 or even an earlier edition again or switching to the hero system.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 8:37PM
#44
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Can you put spaces after the periods at the end of your sentences? I'm finding it really difficult to follow your arguments, especially when you have 4 or 5 posts in a row.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 8:38PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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I know that I have had some trouble in game with open terrain fights.
I will agree with you on this one.
4E does seem more inclined to interior/dungeon fights as opposed to open terrain for just the reasons you listed. Dungeons/castles/ruins/caverns all have very defined walls or rooms. No need to worry about the effect shoving the monster off the map if there is a 10 feet thick stone wall in the way.
The other issue I have with the maps/minis preference is alternate battlefields. Underwater. In the sky. In the Astral Sea. Plotting a grid is easy if your feet are on the ground. Take that into a full 3D battlefield like flight and the issues pop up. You basically have to revert back to the old school method of using descriptions instead of maps and minis. 3D battles make everything more difficult, from AoEs to effects that push, pull, slide to flanking to sneak attacks to line of sight...too many to list. The easiest (only?) way to do it justice is to simply describe it all and leave the maps and minis for the next cave crawl.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 8:56PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2007
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I know that I have had some trouble in game with open terrain fights.
I will agree with you on this one.
4E does seem more inclined to interior/dungeon fights as opposed to open terrain for just the reasons you listed. Dungeons/castles/ruins/caverns all have very defined walls or rooms. No need to worry about the effect shoving the monster off the map if there is a 10 feet thick stone wall in the way.
The other issue I have with the maps/minis preference is alternate battlefields. Underwater. In the sky. In the Astral Sea. Plotting a grid is easy if your feet are on the ground. Take that into a full 3D battlefield like flight and the issues pop up. You basically have to revert back to the old school method of using descriptions instead of maps and minis. 3D battles make everything more difficult, from AoEs to effects that push, pull, slide to flanking to sneak attacks to line of sight...too many to list. The easiest (only?) way to do it justice is to simply describe it all and leave the maps and minis for the next cave crawl.
As hard as such battles may be to grid, they can still be a lot of fun!
Take care, friend.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 9:27PM
#47
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- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2004
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I find the WoW comparison fascinating, personally. Allow me to do something similar.
I find 3rd edition plays too much like Diablo. In Diablo, you create The Combo and the execute The Combo until the enemy falls over. When you advance in levels, you add points to various abilities, but you don't usually get anything new, instead, your basic attack that you've been using since level 1 gets bigger numbers attached to it, which is supposed to make you feel like a hero.
I find that all 3rd edition noncasters play like Diablo characters. They create The Combo that they use...full attacking, grappling focus, sundering focus, or just twanging away with a bow, and then from levels one to twenty, they spend every combat session repeating The Combo. At level 20, The Combo is more potent, but it is the same basic attack they have been making since level 1, just with different numbers attached to it. In this way, I can infer that 3rd edition classes are "videogamey".
Bleh. Now I must wash out my mouth. Or typing fingers. Or whatever. Because that old, silly arguement is dry and dusty.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 9:35PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I find the WoW comparison fascinating, personally. Allow me to do something similar.
I find 3rd edition plays too much like Diablo. In Diablo, you create The Combo and the execute The Combo until the enemy falls over. When you advance in levels, you add points to various abilities, but you don't usually get anything new, instead, your basic attack that you've been using since level 1 gets bigger numbers attached to it, which is supposed to make you feel like a hero.
I find that all 3rd edition noncasters play like Diablo characters. They create The Combo that they use...full attacking, grappling focus, sundering focus, or just twanging away with a bow, and then from levels one to twenty, they spend every combat session repeating The Combo. At level 20, The Combo is more potent, but it is the same basic attack they have been making since level 1, just with different numbers attached to it. In this way, I can infer that 3rd edition classes are "videogamey".
Bleh. Now I must wash out my mouth. Or typing fingers. Or whatever. Because that old, silly arguement is dry and dusty.
Best rebuttal ever.
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 9:38PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2007
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I find the WoW comparison fascinating, personally. Allow me to do something similar.
I find 3rd edition plays too much like Diablo. In Diablo, you create The Combo and the execute The Combo until the enemy falls over. When you advance in levels, you add points to various abilities, but you don't usually get anything new, instead, your basic attack that you've been using since level 1 gets bigger numbers attached to it, which is supposed to make you feel like a hero.
I find that all 3rd edition noncasters play like Diablo characters. They create The Combo that they use...full attacking, grappling focus, sundering focus, or just twanging away with a bow, and then from levels one to twenty, they spend every combat session repeating The Combo. At level 20, The Combo is more potent, but it is the same basic attack they have been making since level 1, just with different numbers attached to it. In this way, I can infer that 3rd edition classes are "videogamey".
Bleh. Now I must wash out my mouth. Or typing fingers. Or whatever. Because that old, silly arguement is dry and dusty.
Hey! Where in the rules did it say I could have my barbarian scream a health potion out of a corpse?! I was missing out big time!
Take care, friend.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 9:43PM
#50
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2005
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2nd edition was waaay too much like WoW.
1) Equipment tended to matter a lot more than individual player skill or class ability.
2) Radical levels of power difference between classes.
3) Patches took months to come out (lacking a website errata was normally found in newer published books)
4) If your class was able to heal you were expected to do nothing but heal.
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