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3 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2009 - 1:47PM
#81
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2009
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Take for example the Warden's ability to mark.
"Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action"
Each adjacent enemy is a subset of all enemies, which is a subset of all creatures.
According to your logic, this statement is an example and not exclusive. So by that logic the warden can mark everyone regardless of distance.
Its the same as the difference between "you can mark" and "you can mark goats", only in this case goats = "each adjacent enemy".
It is an allowance. Without other rules saying the warden can mark any creature, the warden is limited to marking just enemies. The statement itself is not the limiting factor--the rules as a whole are determining what can and cannot be marked by a warden.
If divine challenge did not exist in the power block and it still had the "you can mark enemies" statement, then you could only mark enemies because no where else does it say you can mark anything.
Since it is in a power block and since that power block lets you target a creature (and not only an enemy) and since the class feature text does not, in any way, override what you can and cannot mark, you can mark any creature (apart from yourself, due to the "close" range rules).
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3 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2009 - 2:09PM
#82
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Take for example the Warden's ability to mark.
"Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action"
Each adjacent enemy is a subset of all enemies, which is a subset of all creatures.
According to your logic, this statement is an example and not exclusive. So by that logic the warden can mark everyone regardless of distance.
Its the same as the difference between "you can mark" and "you can mark goats", only in this case goats = "each adjacent enemy".
It is an allowance. Without other rules saying the warden can mark any creature, the warden is limited to marking just enemies. The statement itself is not the limiting factor--the rules as a whole are determining what can and cannot be marked by a warden.
If divine challenge did not exist in the power block and it still had the "you can mark enemies" statement, then you could only mark enemies because no where else does it say you can mark anything.
Since it is in a power block and since that power block lets you target a creature (and not only an enemy) and since the class feature text does not, in any way, override what you can and cannot mark, you can mark any creature (apart from yourself, due to the "close" range rules).
I am going to hate to say this but it seems like according to the RAW you can mark a allay, but this is something I would houserule against
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3 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2009 - 2:31PM
#83
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I am going to hate to say this but it seems like according to the RAW you can mark a allay, but this is something I would houserule against
Even when a power clearly says foe/enemy? I don't think RAW allows you to mark and Ally.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2009 - 4:02PM
#84
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2007
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I am going to hate to say this but it seems like according to the RAW you can mark a allay, but this is something I would houserule against
Even when a power clearly says foe/enemy? I don't think RAW allows you to mark and Ally.
Except that RAW says creatures; those same RAW says creatures include allies, enemies, and even oneself -- hence the lively debate.
In my opinion Suo has the crux of the argument in the Warlord healing -- if the Warlord can't heal himself (because the extra text says "allies" which by RAW excludes oneself), then the Warlord would be at an enormous disadvantage compared to other leaders.
To say that by RAW you can't mark an ally is to say a Warlord can't heal himself.
If the equivalent argument is that by RAI you can't mark an ally, then saying by RAI a Warlord can heal himself, while that may make more logical sense, it definitely adds a fair amount of confusion.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2009 - 4:48PM
#85
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I am going to hate to say this but it seems like according to the RAW you can mark a allay, but this is something I would houserule against
Even when a power clearly says foe/enemy? I don't think RAW allows you to mark and Ally.
Except that RAW says creatures; those same RAW says creatures include allies, enemies, and even oneself -- hence the lively debate.
In my opinion Suo has the crux of the argument in the Warlord healing -- if the Warlord can't heal himself (because the extra text says "allies" which by RAW excludes oneself), then the Warlord would be at an enormous disadvantage compared to other leaders.
To say that by RAW you can't mark an ally is to say a Warlord can't heal himself.
If the equivalent argument is that by RAI you can't mark an ally, then saying by RAI a Warlord can heal himself, while that may make more logical sense, it definitely adds a fair amount of confusion.
The powers in question also have further explaintion on those powers, where "creature" is clearly limited to foe/enemy.
If you look up Warlock on the compendium, it clearly says in the power block, not the flavor text, "You can place a Warlock’s Curse on the enemy nearest to you that you can see." And everything else says enemy, not creature. The layout in the compendium is different then how it appears in the players handbook. In fact, warlocks curse doesn't have a power block for it.
However, Divine Challenge first says "mark an enemy", but in the power block it says target.
While it's clear from the rules, creature can mean ally or foe, target doesn't mean that. Since the first part of the entry, (Which is not flavor) says enemy, and later uses target, target = enemy.
If you want to play semantics, when you first say, You may place your divine challenge on one enemy. And then go on to talk about the target, you are still limited only being able to place it on an enemy.
For fighter, it says every enemy.
Hunters Quarry, enemy.
Swordmage has some leway, but it's limited to the attacker. So if you place your mark on someone who is an ally, chances are, they aren't going to attack you to trigger the effect. If they do, then if that isn't a bag o rats...
So just going over most of the classes and examples given through out this thread, all say enemy, or attacker. Where it doesn't enemy in the power blocks (When there are power blocks) it says target, not creature.
Creature may mean target, but target doesn't mean creature. Since earlier, the target is defined as enemy, you can't put marks willy nilly on your friends.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2009 - 4:50PM
#86
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2005
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I'm confused how flavor text and actual rules are being considered the same by some people.
With Divine Challenge, as previously noted, it NEVER says enemy in the rules text. It only comes up in the flavor text.
Here is the section on flavor text from " How to Read a Power " in the PHB.
"Flavor Text
A wave of acid dissolves all creatures that stand before you.
The next section of a power description gives a brief explanation of what the power does, sometimes including information about what it looks or sounds like. The flavor text for acid wave appears here as an example.
A power’s flavor text helps you understand what happens when you use a power and how you might describe it when you use it. You can alter this description as you like, to fit your own idea of what your power looks like. Your wizard’s magic missile spell, for example, might create phantasmal skulls that howl through the air to strike your opponent, rather than simple bolts of magical energy. When you need to know the exact effect, look at the rules text that follows."
It's really that simple. The flavor text doesn't matter and can be altered or removed without consequence to how the power functions.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 01, 2009 - 5:31PM
#87
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I'm confused how flavor text and actual rules are being considered the same by some people.
With Divine Challenge, as previously noted, it NEVER says enemy in the rules text. It only comes up in the flavor text.
Here is the section on flavor text from " How to Read a Power " in the PHB.
"Flavor Text
A wave of acid dissolves all creatures that stand before you.
The next section of a power description gives a brief explanation of what the power does, sometimes including information about what it looks or sounds like. The flavor text for acid wave appears here as an example.
A power’s flavor text helps you understand what happens when you use a power and how you might describe it when you use it. You can alter this description as you like, to fit your own idea of what your power looks like. Your wizard’s magic missile spell, for example, might create phantasmal skulls that howl through the air to strike your opponent, rather than simple bolts of magical energy. When you need to know the exact effect, look at the rules text that follows."
It's really that simple. The flavor text doesn't matter and can be altered or removed without consequence to how the power functions.
Many of the marks that are part of class features, don't actually have power blocks, like divine challenge, (warlocks curse.) But all of them have text, outside of the power block that explain the class feature, which are not flavor text. The rules are very clear on what flavor text is.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 3:34AM
#88
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2005
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A blurb about the power doesn't override the " How to Read a Power " section. It's exactly that. A blurb about the power. It's very similar to when you read the feat tables. The blurb and the actual feat do not always work the same.
Class features usually specify if they work like powers or not. Many of them are then given power block write ups. The reason they said class features work like powers, then gave them a power block write up, is because readers are not intended to follow a vague blurb written well outside the power block section they proivded as actual rules to govern the power.
This is the beginning of the How to Read a Power section that I forgot earlier to mention.
"HOW TO READ A POWER
No part of the D&D game has as much variety as the powers that describe what characters can do. Even so, the way that various powers are described follows a structured format. Here’s the information you need to understand how a power works. "
Nowhere does it say " Please ignore our structured format if a blurb written earlier contradicts parts of how we say the power works. " You would be required to do this ( ignore the target line of " One creature " and replace it with " One enemy " ) if you use the blurb earlier on instead of just the actual rules they give on how to use the power.
Lastly, as pointed out earlier, the quasi flavor text circled doesn't preclude friends from being targetted. It's a description of the power being used.
If the quasi flavor text was to be considered part of the rules text, Healing Word would no longer function on the cleric using it since they are not their own comrade. Lay on Hands wouldn't be able to heal the Paladin using it because they are not their own comrade. The same with Inspiring Word. None of these things are true, but there would be conflicts with the quasi flavor text and the rules the powers follow if the quasi flavor text was rules text.
All hair splitting aside on either of our parts, why wouldn't they just say " One Enemy " as the target if that is what the power was supposed to be limited to?
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 4:02AM
#89
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I knew the counter arguement would be "That text doesn't matter" It doesn't over ride, it clarifies. You can try and dismiss it if you want, but it's a rule, its there in the game, it's not flavor text, it comes before the power block.
Nothing in how to read a power says that text outside the power block doesn't apply. And the how to read a power section is very clear on what is flavor text, and that isn't flavor text. It's not quasi flavor text. There's no such thing as quasi flavor text. It's a rule.
Warlocks curse, Fighters Combat advantage, and many other class features don't have a power block like divine challenge does. The fact is, the format isn't always the same, between book and compendium. In the books, warlocks curse and combat challenge don't have power blocks, just text. In the compendium, that text is laid out in a power block format.
All classes with the ability to mark make it clear, in some text, that is not in the flavor text, marks are used on an enemy, foe, or attacker.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2009 - 4:32AM
#90
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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I knew the counter arguement would be "That text doesn't matter" It doesn't over ride, it clarifies. You can try and dismiss it if you want, but it's a rule, its there in the game, it's not flavor text, it comes before the power block.
That text doesn't clarify, it explains one possible use of the power.
You continually ignore the counter-point of Healing Word and Lay on Hands. Those show exactly how the additional text explains one possible use of the associated power.
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