Ok so, I just finished a build path for a goliath stormheart warden that uses the spiked chain and tries to optimize controlling, tanking, and dpsing so as to provide the most utility that I can. I've tried to focus more on multi-target damage since I'm in a party with a good deal of single target DPS (rogue that swaps between a fey pact warlock character, ranger, dps swordmage). There aren't any controllers, we only have 1 leader (cleric), and there's also a mostly tank / support paladin (so I don't need to be the main defender). I spent a lot of feats on two-weapon based things to try and best utilize the OAs and sudden roots proccing that I will (hopefully) be getting (which provides a good amount of my control). I would like to find more ways of knocking enemies prone, especially if I can use a lightning / thunder power to do it, but I'm torn between getting more powers that have average AoE / damage and ones that have slightly better than mediocre DPS but are single target...
Anyways, I'm opening him up for critiques now that Primal Power is out on the CB so I don't have to manually write this stuff and look things up in my book every time =P. I was having a tough time picking the "best" powers to pick every level, as I wanted to try and keep the storm "flavor" with the character. I'm open to suggestions on "better" powers that allow for more control and optimize utility from a survival / dps standpoint [mainly for myself, I've been getting rocked lately because I chose to start off at level 1 when the party was all 3-4]. I took Windrise Ports strictly for the ability to have 2 multiclasses but didn't take the additional language intentionally. Also of note, I haven't picked any magical equipment period, and I can't take Mark of Storm (which makes me a sad, sad panda) because this isn't an Eberron campaign. Other than that, I welcome any and all comments / criticisms / suggestions.
Edit 11/23: swapped Two Weapon Ambush for Weapon Focus (Flail) and swapped Mountain Lion Step for Eyes of the Hawk.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Ghul'Tok, level 30 Goliath, Warden, Polearm Master, Eternal Seeker Guardian Might: Stormheart Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons Seeking Destiny: Godlike Stature Background: Windrise Ports (Windrise Ports Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 24, Con 24, Dex 19, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 16, Con 16, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10.
No one has any comments? I was hoping to get some thoughts on the power choices, at the very least... I'd like to replace Winter's Claws for something, hopefully a lightning / thunder power...
I think it looks great, but I guess you already knew my opinion. Unfortunately, when it comes to improvement suggestions, I'm still very much a Primal Power noob (haven't bought the book myself yet).
Regarding replies, seems most regulars here are immersed in various discussions related to the recent errata, so I guess you may have to wait an bump a few more times to get their attention.
Btw, I don't know if you're aware, but we can with 99% certainty expect the Spiked Chain to get a whack from the nerf-bat within shortly. Or as a dev put it in a post here recently: "It's on our radar." I suspect the Chain will be toned down in the same way as the other Double Weapons, but unless they change the powers, it shouldn't affect this build much since it's not dependent on having the off-hand property on both ends.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I am rebuilding your build in the Character Builder so I can print it and take a look at the whole think in context. However, since my game starts at 7th leve, I'll be analyzing it from that perspective.
I do have a couple of questions:
1) How did you get an additional trained skill (I think it was intimidate)? 2) If you could take Mark of Storm, where would you take it? I was thinking at level 6 myself. 3) If you could take Mark of Storm, would you make any changes to your power or feat selection in the Heroic tier? 4) If you could buy magic items, did you have any in mind for the Heroic tier?
Thanks for a fine build, and I look forward to talking about it further once I read the full thing.
I added Mark of Storm at level 6. That changes a LOT of things.
I added magic equipment for a 7th level character. Normally you'd get one 8th level item, one 7th level item, one 6th level item, and enough gold to buy another 6th level item. However, because both rushing cleats and staggering weapon are important for this build, both of which are 7th level items, I just took one of those instead of the 8th level item. Maybe your GM will be kind and give you the difference in gold to spend on potions or something, and maybe not. But still, it's worth it to do this.
Anyway, items are:
+2 Staggering Spiked Chain (Add +2 to any slide you do with this weapon, knock down on crit, and daily slide target 2);
Rushing Cleats (Add +1 to any push or slide of your melee and close attacks, also +2 to bull rushes);
Summoned Hide Armor +2 (best 6th level armor available, and power might be useful if you ever need to do any stealth or for some non-combat encounters);
Amulet of Proection +2 (best NAD bonus available at 6th level).
The first two items are, obviously, the most important for this build.
Now, of your 10 chosen powers at this level, half have a SLIDE FOUR added to them (1 from Mark of Storm, +1 from Rushing Cleats, +2 from Staggering Weapon), if I am reading things correctly.
And it gets even better. The staggering weapon adds a daily Slide 3 to one attack. And the Form of Mountain's Thunder daily makes one attack each round a slide 4 (1 from Mark of Storm, +1 from Rushing Cleats, +2 from Staggering Weapon), and also adds an encounter power that is a slide 4 (1 from Mark of Storm, +1 from Rushing Cleats, +2 from Staggering Weapon).
But wait, it gets even better! A lot of those Slide 4 attacks actually slide 4 on more than one foe, and even sometimes every single marked foe! Tempest Assault, an at will, will be sliding two foes 4 if you hit. Gale Strike will be sliding each enemy marked by you 4. Violent Bolt will slide two foes 4 on a hit. And when in your Form of the Mountain Thunder, one melee attack every round will cause every marked foe to slide 4, and you have an encounter power added that also has a slide 4 on every marked enemy.
And of your remaining 5 powers, three are pure utility, while the remaining 2 attacks also slow on a hit (and even those will be sliding people if you use your weapon daily power or Form of the Mountain Thunder).
And lets not forget that when you use your second wind, you slide and slow enemies (though no increase from these magic items since they are not melee or close attacks), and your Warden's Grasp also slides and slows foes. Of course, Sudden Roots slows foes as well on opportunity attacks.
In other words, pretty much every attack you make will either slide your foes (usually 4 spaces) or slow them, and often both (most will slide 4).
This is a HUGE battlefield control build. And it really loses none of the defender aspect. You still mark lots of foes, still punish them for ignoring you, still have lots of hit points, high defenses, and frequent saves.
The only thing this build is begging for is the Polearm Momentum feat from Martial Power. But I see no possible way to add that in without butchering the build. You would need much higher Dex and Wis, a multiclass fighter feat earlier, and a change of weapon to a different reach weapon. That's simply not worth it. But boy would it be awesome to add in a Knock Prone to every one of those Slide effects!
I'm not an expert at this kind of stuff, so I'd be happy if someone checked the rules on all of the above. As it stands, looks like a really solid build to me.
I am rebuilding your build in the Character Builder so I can print it and take a look at the whole think in context. However, since my game starts at 7th leve, I'll be analyzing it from that perspective.
I do have a couple of questions:
1) How did you get an additional trained skill (I think it was intimidate)? 2) If you could take Mark of Storm, where would you take it? I was thinking at level 6 myself. 3) If you could take Mark of Storm, would you make any changes to your power or feat selection in the Heroic tier? 4) If you could buy magic items, did you have any in mind for the Heroic tier?
1) I got intimidate by MCing into fighter with Student of the Sword (which I got by picking the Windrise Ports background). It also doesn't really matter which spec you take for that, since the spiked chain counts both as two weapons and as a two-handed weapon.
2) That is where I originally took it, before my DM told me I couldn't use it. I would then also probably swap out fleet footed and pick up resounding thunder in there somewhere, really all depending on how the campaign was going.
3) Yeah, I would pick up Thunder Ram Assault instead of Gale Strike. I would also most likely replace winter's claws at 17 with reckless ram assault and then replace rumbling doom at 23 with champion's call (close burst 6 to pull enemies 5 squares and then do damage, immobilize, and slide is win). I might also keep thundering bolts over form of mountain's thunder. Actually, I'm going to update my build now to retrain blade opp. for resounding thunder at 11. Close blast 2 on form of mountain's thunder or close blast 4 on thundering bolts is pretty win.
4) I hadn't really looked at it, although I definitely think I'd pick up a lightning weapon (since using the daily free action adds lots of damage and sliding goodness that you can combo pretty well with things, assuming that power counts as a "hit" for mark of storm) or a stormbiter warblade (free action to knock the BBEG prone and give him ongoing 5? not too shabby) augmented with an eberron shard of lightning.
Armor: I'd probably grab shared suffering, counterstrike, pouncing, or marauder's, depending on the campaign and party comp. I would personally pick pouncing or marauder because I like to charge a lot.
Arms: Barrage Bracers, Skull Bracers, Bracers of Tactical Blows, Bracers of Defense, Iron Armbands of Power, leaning towards tactical blows or the armbands of power.
Feet: Rushing Cleats or Boots of Surging Speed, leaning towards the former if you have no controller in your party.
Hands: Antipathy Gloves or Storm Gauntlets, leaning towards Antipathy.
Head: Horned Helm, Boar Tusk Helm, or Circlet of Indomitability (my will def sucks), leaning towards the horned helm although the daily is very nice from boar tusk...
Neck: Cloak of Resistance, of the Walking Wounded, or Badge of the Berserker (more charge synergy).
Waist: Diamond Cincture (minor action free surge dailies?!?!) or Cincture of the Dragon Spirit if you happen to be the type that intimidates bloodied foes a lot to make them surrender, then kill them anyway >=)
I added Mark of Storm at level 6. That changes a LOT of things.
I added magic equipment for a 7th level character. Normally you'd get one 8th level item, one 7th level item, one 6th level item, and enough gold to buy another 6th level item. However, because both rushing cleats and staggering weapon are important for this build, both of which are 7th level items, I just took one of those instead of the 8th level item. Maybe your GM will be kind and give you the difference in gold to spend on potions or something, and maybe not. But still, it's worth it to do this.
Ah, I've not played any 4e games where I haven't started at level 1 (I had the option to with this one to start at 3 or 4, since the rest of the party was around there, but opted not to). I still don't have any magic items as of yet =*(
+2 Staggering Spiked Chain (Add +2 to any slide you do with this weapon, knock down on crit, and daily slide target 2);
Rushing Cleats (Add +1 to any push or slide of your melee and close attacks, also +2 to bull rushes);
Summoned Hide Armor +2 (best 6th level armor available, and power might be useful if you ever need to do any stealth or for some non-combat encounters);
Amulet of Proection +2 (best NAD bonus available at 6th level).
The first two items are, obviously, the most important for this build.
Hrm, you know, I don't know how I missed the staggering weapon. I was looking through items in the builder, and now I'm looking through again and seeing a completely different list of items. I have no idea what I was looking at. I'd also consider weapon of great opportunity or vanguard if you like charging, but yeah staggering is pretty win. Also of note for the hands slot are Parry Gauntlets and Strikebacks.
Now, of your 10 chosen powers at this level, half have a SLIDE FOUR added to them (1 from Mark of Storm, +1 from Rushing Cleats, +2 from Staggering Weapon), if I am reading things correctly.
And it gets even better. The staggering weapon adds a daily Slide 3 to one attack. And the Form of Mountain's Thunder daily makes one attack each round a slide 4 (1 from Mark of Storm, +1 from Rushing Cleats, +2 from Staggering Weapon), and also adds an encounter power that is a slide 4 (1 from Mark of Storm, +1 from Rushing Cleats, +2 from Staggering Weapon).
But wait, it gets even better! A lot of those Slide 4 attacks actually slide 4 on more than one foe, and even sometimes every single marked foe! Tempest Assault, an at will, will be sliding two foes 4 if you hit. Gale Strike will be sliding each enemy marked by you 4. Violent Bolt will slide two foes 4 on a hit. And when in your Form of the Mountain Thunder, one melee attack every round will cause every marked foe to slide 4, and you have an encounter power added that also has a slide 4 on every marked enemy.
And of your remaining 5 powers, three are pure utility, while the remaining 2 attacks also slow on a hit (and even those will be sliding people if you use your weapon daily power or Form of the Mountain Thunder).
And lets not forget that when you use your second wind, you slide and slow enemies (though no increase from these magic items since they are not melee or close attacks), and your Warden's Grasp also slides and slows foes. Of course, Sudden Roots slows foes as well on opportunity attacks.
In other words, pretty much every attack you make will either slide your foes (usually 4 spaces) or slow them, and often both (most will slide 4).
This is a HUGE battlefield control build. And it really loses none of the defender aspect. You still mark lots of foes, still punish them for ignoring you, still have lots of hit points, high defenses, and frequent saves.
Haha, yeah this is basically why I made the build, although I would love to have Mark of Storm. With the changes I just mentioned, it gets even better =) With some of the items, it is just disgusting...
The only thing this build is begging for is the Polearm Momentum feat from Martial Power. But I see no possible way to add that in without butchering the build. You would need much higher Dex and Wis, a multiclass fighter feat earlier, and a change of weapon to a different reach weapon. That's simply not worth it. But boy would it be awesome to add in a Knock Prone to every one of those Slide effects!
I'm not an expert at this kind of stuff, so I'd be happy if someone checked the rules on all of the above. As it stands, looks like a really solid build to me.
I had originally tried to get polearm's in here somehow, but was losing way too much from all of the changes needed. It was hard enough just burning a str and con modifier to get the 19 dex for some of the epic level feats, but I definitely think it's worth it (I gain ref defense though, so that's always a plus). Really, though, depending on how you want to gear this build out, you can do some pretty crazy **** =) +1d8+1d6+2 damage to every charge attack just from 3 items comes to mind...
Hmm, also, unless I'm missing something, you can enchant BOTH ends of a double weapon, meaning a spiked chain could be enchanted with both staggering AND opportunistic / stormbiter / lightning / vanguard / of great opportunity. Dirty.
Where does the Spiked Chain become a double weapon? [Edit - Ah, nevermind, I see it now, the multi-class feat of Spiked Chain Training, which I had accidentally thought was the weapon proficiency feat]
So now the question is, can you enchant it as a lightening and a staggering weapon at the same time? That would be awesome. I don't see how you could do it in the character builder.
I've been thinking a bit about some of your feat choices, and would like to hear your reasoning behind them:
Student of the Sword - wouldn't retraining to Battle Awareness be a much better idea (even if you usually don't want enemies to end up adjacent to you)?
Two-Weapon Ambush - why not WF instead (+2/+3 damage with every hit instead of +1 average damage only when you have CA)?
Fleet-Footed - is speed really that needed with a reach build?
Two-Weapon Opening - great feat once your crit range is increased, but why before Flail Mastery?
Devastating Critical - as above, and aren't there a lot more interesting defender-ish stuff you can do with a crit, such as Triumphant Attack?
Also, I think your base AC (max 44 at lvl 30) is a bit too low for a defender and your Reflex could use a bonus as well, making Two-Weapon Defense a great choice IMO. In short, I would suggest a feat list closer to this:
1) How did you get an additional trained skill (I think it was intimidate)? 2) If you could take Mark of Storm, where would you take it? I was thinking at level 6 myself. 3) If you could take Mark of Storm, would you make any changes to your power or feat selection in the Heroic tier? 4) If you could buy magic items, did you have any in mind for the Heroic tier?
Thanks for a fine build, and I look forward to talking about it further once I read the full thing.
I can see why Bruceleroy99's DM didn't allow Mark of Storm, as the feat is originally setting specific (Eberron), and so is the Windrise Ports (Forgotten Realms) background (which allows you to take two class specific MC feats - in this case Spiked Chain Training + Student of the Sword). So I'd recommend you talk to your DM about both of these (depending on your setting) before making a build relying on them, especially if you'd like to get both. Strictly according to the rules, you cannot take a Forgotten Realms' background without being in a FR campaign, and neither can you take a Dragonmark feat without playing in Eberron, so combining them would be impossible (but this of course very much up to your DM).
Hmm, also, unless I'm missing something, you can enchant BOTH ends of a double weapon, meaning a spiked chain could be enchanted with both staggering AND opportunistic / stormbiter / lightning / vanguard / of great opportunity. Dirty.
You can only put one enchant on a Double Weapon, but the enhanchantment only have to fit with one of the ends' weapon group(s). With the errataed rules all effects of the enchantment apply to both ends, instead of only the +hit, +damage and crit lines. For example an Urgrosh (main hand Axe, off hand Spear) can be enchanted with anything that works for spears or axes and the enchant applies to both ends, meaning for example the at-will power of a Lightning Weapon can be used when hitting with either end. The Chain haven't been errataed yet, but if I'm to guess I think the new version will look something like this:
Main: 2d4, flail, light blade, reach
Off: 2d4, flail, light blade, off-hand
Or possibly:
Main: 2d4, flail, reach, stout
Off: 2d4, light blade, reach, off-hand
The new "stout" property means attacks using this end can be treated as if wielding a 2-handed weapon, which would be quite beneficial for this build as it doesn't have any off-hand attack powers.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
