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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:14PM
#11
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2005
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I don't think it would be a huge problem so long as you have people who can do appropriate skill challenges and the like assuming that the game has them. It might matter somewhat less in an extremely combat oriented game however.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:21PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Feb 11, 2006
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Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem. Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman. Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.
Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.
+1
I've known players who absolutely refuse to have a negative modifier, which is fine. I've also known players who would tank three stats down to 1 to jack their important stats into 'the other PCs are my cohorts' territory. I'm sure some groups could handle sub-8s, but I wouldn't want to worry about the potential "You're min/maxing that 4 aren't you!" "No I'm not, I'm going to rp it!" "No you won't, Int 4 is ape-level!" "Nuh-uh, Int 4 is only mildly retarded!" "Yah-hah, you munchkin!" debates.
No thanks.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:24PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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I don't think it would be a huge problem so long as you have people who can do appropriate skill challenges and the like assuming that the game has them. It might matter somewhat less in an extremely combat oriented game however.
It'd be pretty bad in both. In combat you're important stats would be higher then expected giving bonuses across the board and access to all sorts of feats. In skill challenges your characters couldn't fail at some checks and couldn't succeed at others.
Of course this assumes basic competence in character design. If you don't have that the combat issues won't be that bad.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:28PM
#14
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XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Date Joined:
May 31, 2003
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I don't think it would be a huge problem so long as you have people who can do appropriate skill challenges and the like assuming that the game has them. It might matter somewhat less in an extremely combat oriented game however.
It'd be pretty bad in both. In combat you're important stats would be higher then expected giving bonuses across the board and access to all sorts of feats. In skill challenges your characters couldn't fail at some checks and couldn't succeed at others.
Of course this assumes basic competence in character design. If you don't have that the combat issues won't be that bad.
Wrong. The skill challenges do not allow you to be so good at them that you need a 2 or better to pass. Your skills will not get like that with a few more points added to your score. 4 more points will give you +2 more to a score. If you are up against skill challenges where you need a 5 or better then something is wrong with that challenges, or the challenge is to low.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:29PM
#15
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XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Date Joined:
May 31, 2003
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Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem. Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman. Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.
Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.
+1
I've known players who absolutely refuse to have a negative modifier, which is fine. I've also known players who would tank three stats down to 1 to jack their important stats into 'the other PCs are my cohorts' territory. I'm sure some groups could handle sub-8s, but I wouldn't want to worry about the potential "You're min/maxing that 4 aren't you!" "No I'm not, I'm going to rp it!" "No you won't, Int 4 is ape-level!" "Nuh-uh, Int 4 is only mildly retarded!" "Yah-hah, you munchkin!" debates.
No thanks.
A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:29PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2006
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Well since it's a perfect opportunity for minmaxing it obviously could be a problem. Even back in 2nd where stats were a characters lifeblood the RPGA kept players from going below a 6 because it was too useful to trash Cha and just suck up the reaction penalty/have a faceman. Now in 4th where a determined min maxer can dump 3 stats safely depending on class it's just leaving the door open for trouble to come in.
Add on top of that the little RP gain for such (no one agrees on what a 6 or 8 or 4 in a stat even means, including the designers), there's no real reason to allow such things.
HAH! Any problems here arise more from poor DMing than a player seeking an advantage.
I mean, c'mon, if someone's fool enough to drop a stat (let alone several!) to such rediculous levels? That's just BEGGING Fate to screw with you no matter what game or edition you're in. And oh, look at that, Fate just happens to one of the many NPCs I as a DM control..... So I DARE you to hand me such opprotunity. Bring on your uber characature. See how usefull trashing a stat really is in the hands of a competent storyteller. 
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:34PM
#17
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That is one seriously messed up definition of a competent DM.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:36PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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HAH! Any problems here arise more from poor DMing than a player seeking an advantage.
I mean, c'mon, if someone's fool enough to drop a stat (let alone several!) to such rediculous levels? That's just BEGGING Fate to screw with you no matter what game or edition you're in. And oh, look at that, Fate just happens to one of the many NPCs I as a DM control..... So I DARE you to hand me such opprotunity. Bring on your uber characature. See how usefull trashing a stat really is in the hands of a competent storyteller.
If you're just allowing them to make a character to prove you can use DM fiat to kill him you should quit DMing.
Yes you can kill someone with twinked stats with the infinate power you possess as a DM. If you know the rules better then them you might even do it legitimately, without threatening anyone else in the party. But the fact that your at the very best wasting everyone else in the rooms time with your pissing contest is 100% DM failure on your part.
Well... At least we got custom avatars....
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:38PM
#19
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HAH! Any problems here arise more from poor DMing than a player seeking an advantage.
I mean, c'mon, if someone's fool enough to drop a stat (let alone several!) to such rediculous levels? That's just BEGGING Fate to screw with you no matter what game or edition you're in. And oh, look at that, Fate just happens to one of the many NPCs I as a DM control..... So I DARE you to hand me such opprotunity. Bring on your uber characature. See how usefull trashing a stat really is in the hands of a competent storyteller.
If you're just allowing them to make a character to prove you can use DM fiat to kill him you should quit DMing.
Yes you can kill someone with twinked stats with the infinate power you possess as a DM. If you know the rules better then them you might even do it legitimately, without threatening anyone else in the party. But the fact that your at the very best wasting everyone else in the rooms time with your pissing contest is 100% DM failure on your part.
You said it much better than I could have (or did). This post contains much win and wisdom.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 11:43PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Wrong. The skill challenges do not allow you to be so good at them that you need a 2 or better to pass. Your skills will not get like that with a few more points added to your score. 4 more points will give you +2 more to a score. If you are up against skill challenges where you need a 5 or better then something is wrong with that challenges, or the challenge is to low.
My level 11 Human Bard's Diplomacy (+22) beats all Easy DCs, and pretty much aces most Moderate DCs (by most, I mean all except for the rare time I don't roll a 2/4/6 on levels 22-24/25-27/28-30). The only DCs he'd have a remote problem with are the 25th to 30th, and he can just throw up a Word of Friendship to make his check +27 and whip those ones too. Any Aid Anothers I can grab will only result in me humiliating the DC.
It's not that hard to pump up skill checks to awesome ridiculous levels.
A 4 intelligence for an ape and a 4 intelligence for a human are not the same.
Yes it is. Intelligence is not graded on an individual or species basis. Int 4 is int 4 no matter who possesses it, be they angels, apes, men, or a yappy dog.
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