Do folks think that, in general, fighter or ranger makes a better MC for a whirling slayer barbarian? A lot of the fighter 2-weapon powers give multiple attacks with +Str and +Dex to damage (if you have CA, which is easy for a slayer); I haven't done any direct comparisons yet, but I suspect that may actually allow comparable or even higher damage than similar level barbarian powers.
For ranger, it seems intuitive, but a lot of the powers don't seem much better than similar level slayer powers. I can see a case for using the out-of-turn or minor action attacks, but that works for rangers because they can always round out their turn with a Twin Strike (effectively increasing the damage of their minor action attacks by 2[W]); a slayer can't get quite the same focused damage.
Also depends partly on PPs, I guess - right now there's only one dual-wielding barbarian PP; fighters get the Shock Trooper and rangers get a few options (primarily Blade Dancer and Avalanche Hurler). None of them seems distinctly more useful than the others. Any thoughts?
In terms of practical play, I really like Fighter - because you can pick up Come and Get It. The abuses of that power with an action point and your sick, sick close burst options is just fun times.
I notice you put hide expertise as a second level and a big weapon as first. I think you would want the extra AC at first level to survie to the next level. You want damage but if you die its really taxing at the first couple of levels
Do folks think that, in general, fighter or ranger makes a better MC for a whirling slayer barbarian? A lot of the fighter 2-weapon powers give multiple attacks with +Str and +Dex to damage (if you have CA, which is easy for a slayer); I haven't done any direct comparisons yet, but I suspect that may actually allow comparable or even higher damage than similar level barbarian powers.
For ranger, it seems intuitive, but a lot of the powers don't seem much better than similar level slayer powers. I can see a case for using the out-of-turn or minor action attacks, but that works for rangers because they can always round out their turn with a Twin Strike (effectively increasing the damage of their minor action attacks by 2[W]); a slayer can't get quite the same focused damage.
Also depends partly on PPs, I guess - right now there's only one dual-wielding barbarian PP; fighters get the Shock Trooper and rangers get a few options (primarily Blade Dancer and Avalanche Hurler). None of them seems distinctly more useful than the others. Any thoughts?
In terms of practical play, I really like Fighter - because you can pick up Come and Get It. The abuses of that power with an action point and your sick, sick close burst options is just fun times.
Hah! I completely missed that. At level 7 it has Curtain of Steel to contend with, but certainly when you get to slightly higher level and have even better close burst powers... wow. Especially if you've gone Twinclaw... then you really, really like being surrounded. No need a controller anymore - you can do it yourself!
That said, beyond that one very interesting option, any thoughts on PPs, feat choices or minor-action attacks?
Also, @RianKing - dying at level 1 really doesn' make a huge difference. And if you're aiming for hide expertise, it means you have a good Con, so you have among the highest hp of any level 1 character to begin with. As a striker, your first job is to kill things fast, so the weapon is a slightly higher priority in general anyway. Really, though, since it's just a one level difference/wait, it's a matter of personal preference.
Do folks think that, in general, fighter or ranger makes a better MC for a whirling slayer barbarian? A lot of the fighter 2-weapon powers give multiple attacks with +Str and +Dex to damage (if you have CA, which is easy for a slayer); I haven't done any direct comparisons yet, but I suspect that may actually allow comparable or even higher damage than similar level barbarian powers.
For ranger, it seems intuitive, but a lot of the powers don't seem much better than similar level slayer powers. I can see a case for using the out-of-turn or minor action attacks, but that works for rangers because they can always round out their turn with a Twin Strike (effectively increasing the damage of their minor action attacks by 2[W]); a slayer can't get quite the same focused damage.
Also depends partly on PPs, I guess - right now there's only one dual-wielding barbarian PP; fighters get the Shock Trooper and rangers get a few options (primarily Blade Dancer and Avalanche Hurler). None of them seems distinctly more useful than the others. Any thoughts?
In terms of practical play, I really like Fighter - because you can pick up Come and Get It. The abuses of that power with an action point and your sick, sick close burst options is just fun times.
Hah! I completely missed that. At level 7 it has Curtain of Steel to contend with, but certainly when you get to slightly higher level and have even better close burst powers... wow. Especially if you've gone Twinclaw... then you really, really like being surrounded. No need a controller anymore - you can do it yourself!
That said, beyond that one very interesting option, any thoughts on PPs, feat choices or minor-action attacks?
Also, @RianKing - dying at level 1 really doesn' make a huge difference. And if you're aiming for hide expertise, it means you have a good Con, so you have among the highest hp of any level 1 character to begin with. As a striker, your first job is to kill things fast, so the weapon is a slightly higher priority in general anyway. Really, though, since it's just a one level difference/wait, it's a matter of personal preference.
having one of the highest hps doesn't help if your getting hit all the time. In my group we had one guy go through 4 barbians and we were level 4 into 5. It taxed our group gold to res him.
At the lower level I am willing to give up and average of one to extra points of damage to gain an extra 4 ac. We are looking at op builds and I think taking the hide expertise at first level is better then weapon proficeny
Do folks think that, in general, fighter or ranger makes a better MC for a whirling slayer barbarian? A lot of the fighter 2-weapon powers give multiple attacks with +Str and +Dex to damage (if you have CA, which is easy for a slayer); I haven't done any direct comparisons yet, but I suspect that may actually allow comparable or even higher damage than similar level barbarian powers.
For ranger, it seems intuitive, but a lot of the powers don't seem much better than similar level slayer powers. I can see a case for using the out-of-turn or minor action attacks, but that works for rangers because they can always round out their turn with a Twin Strike (effectively increasing the damage of their minor action attacks by 2[W]); a slayer can't get quite the same focused damage.
Also depends partly on PPs, I guess - right now there's only one dual-wielding barbarian PP; fighters get the Shock Trooper and rangers get a few options (primarily Blade Dancer and Avalanche Hurler). None of them seems distinctly more useful than the others. Any thoughts?
In terms of practical play, I really like Fighter - because you can pick up Come and Get It. The abuses of that power with an action point and your sick, sick close burst options is just fun times.
Hah! I completely missed that. At level 7 it has Curtain of Steel to contend with, but certainly when you get to slightly higher level and have even better close burst powers... wow. Especially if you've gone Twinclaw... then you really, really like being surrounded. No need a controller anymore - you can do it yourself!
That said, beyond that one very interesting option, any thoughts on PPs, feat choices or minor-action attacks?
Curtain of Steel is a great single target power, but even inititally I don't think it compares at all to Come and Get It for this build. In terms of ease of play, I cannot stress enough how much the game changes when you have the ability to drag all the enemies in around you every fight. Obviously, its the kind of comparison that CO can't measure, I would just urge you to try the power out at the table. I don't think you'll look back from it
PP wise, for the same build I obviously went Twinclaw (as you mention) because the synergy is hugetastic. Even if some other PP offered a huge static damage boost, the combo power here (between the AP to hit bonus and the RIDICULOUS Rage) just seems too overwhelming for me to ignore in a practical game. I've run a few test encounters and hope to do more, but so far, this strategy and build has done a dominating chunk of the damage in every fight that wasn't against a solo (ok, and one that was very range heavy, but it would have sunk most melee characters -.-).
Another potential extension of this build/strategy that works with or without the action point is to take all the OA-improving feats the whirler has (which are many, several of them also hitting multi-target). This means that after you've pulled everyone in, they end up more restricted in their movement away from you because your OA's are brutal. And this can mean extra bursts against them if they don't get too far. It gets even worse if you can move into or create your own difficult terrain, or knock enemies prone - this will basically guarantee that they have to stay clumped with you and suck more bursts or face your AoE AoOs
The Barbarian has some excellent options for this inherently (Macetail's Rage is meh but is a burst prone effect, Great Stomp is absolutely perfect and creates the terrain around you, etc). Earth Gensai get their stomp if you're willing to waste a stat. If you're willing to get cheesy and do double multiclassing (whether through Windrise Ports or that bard feat) you can add Warden stuff for more difficult terrain, or the excellent level 16 Sorcerer Encounter Utility Draconic Majesty, which is a minor burst around you to create the terrain, and also gives an attack penalty equal to your strength, letting you effectively tank them while you hold them in and beat them up (its a pure upgrade on Great Stomp, essentially). Honestly, these extensions of the idea are pretty excessive when you have so many great tools already, but I figured they were worth a mention (and the Sorc util is really drool-worthy).
Of course, if you have a friendly controller who is willing to help hold the enemies in place, all the better. If he happens to be a Storm Sorc or a wizard with War Wizardy, willing to drop other AoE on your head after the Come and Get it... well, I'm sure you get the idea.
[snip] Curtain of Steel is a great single target power, but even inititally I don't think it compares at all to Come and Get It for this build. In terms of ease of play, I cannot stress enough how much the game changes when you have the ability to drag all the enemies in around you every fight. Obviously, its the kind of comparison that CO can't measure, I would just urge you to try the power out at the table. I don't think you'll look back from it
PP wise, for the same build I obviously went Twinclaw (as you mention) because the synergy is hugetastic. Even if some other PP offered a huge static damage boost, the combo power here (between the AP to hit bonus and the RIDICULOUS Rage) just seems too overwhelming for me to ignore in a practical game. I've run a few test encounters and hope to do more, but so far, this strategy and build has done a dominating chunk of the damage in every fight that wasn't against a solo (ok, and one that was very range heavy, but it would have sunk most melee characters -.-).
Another potential extension of this build/strategy that works with or without the action point is to take all the OA-improving feats the whirler has (which are many, several of them also hitting multi-target). This means that after you've pulled everyone in, they end up more restricted in their movement away from you because your OA's are brutal. And this can mean extra bursts against them if they don't get too far. It gets even worse if you can move into or create your own difficult terrain, or knock enemies prone - this will basically guarantee that they have to stay clumped with you and suck more bursts or face your AoE AoOs
The Barbarian has some excellent options for this inherently (Macetail's Rage is meh but is a burst prone effect, Great Stomp is absolutely perfect and creates the terrain around you, etc). Earth Gensai get their stomp if you're willing to waste a stat. If you're willing to get cheesy and do double multiclassing (whether through Windrise Ports or that bard feat) you can add Warden stuff for more difficult terrain, or the excellent level 16 Sorcerer Encounter Utility Draconic Majesty, which is a minor burst around you to create the terrain, and also gives an attack penalty equal to your strength, letting you effectively tank them while you hold them in and beat them up (its a pure upgrade on Great Stomp, essentially). Honestly, these extensions of the idea are pretty excessive when you have so many great tools already, but I figured they were worth a mention (and the Sorc util is really drool-worthy).
Of course, if you have a friendly controller who is willing to help hold the enemies in place, all the better. If he happens to be a Storm Sorc or a wizard with War Wizardy, willing to drop other AoE on your head after the Come and Get it... well, I'm sure you get the idea.
Hmm, dual multiclassing would be really cheesy, yes. But man, that Sorc utility is amazing. It's almost worth it for any random Str-based character to multiclass into just for that!
I suppose, since you're already specialised as a multi-target damage dealer, there's little point in Curtain of Steel for you compared to things which help your burst damage. I'm a great fan of focusing your build, so yeah, Come and Get It makes so much sense. Thanks for the tip :D And Solos... are kinda lame anyway. That's when you call for the other striker in the party. Hopefully it's a rogue
A couple things that I've been tinkering with on my off days from DMing for Whirling Barbarian's (Spinbarians as I like to call them)...
1) Double Weapons seem to fit the bill nicely for a weapon selection. Double Scimitar from Eberron in particular is nice, due to a high crit property, and counting as both a Heavy Blade and Axe for when you want a weapon type that can switch enchantments without being a different weapon. The Stout feature also suggests that you can pump the two handed bonus from Power Attack into the primary end, but I can't be sure. Would be something for you folks who are more familiar with doing this stuff to look into.
2) I know it's not a core race, but the Spinbarian I've been playing with is a Bugbear. I liked the idea of wielding large one handed weapons to boost the damage output on that bad boy. Might be something to consider adding, even if it is low on the racial support side.
I don't fancy myself a full fledged optimizer, but they were interesting enough thoughts to see what y'all might try doing with 'em
Actually, double weapons are less than ideal for a whirling barb, except in a few small ways: 1) they sometimes combine nice properties; 2) with Stout, they let you pick barbarian powers which require a 2-handed weapon; 3) if you're desperately trying to save money/items and can't have 2 separate magic weapons.
But other than that, you're wasting your class feature that lets you use a one-handed weapon in the off-hand. You can get comparable damage output without spending the feat to get training in a double weapon (e.g. 2 longswords vs. double sword), or better yet use the feat to get a one-handed superior weapon proficiency (e.g. 2 bastard swords or waraxes).
