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4 years ago ::
Oct 31, 2009 - 9:09AM
#31
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Good items. Bit sad we cant stack any more modifiers to our damage. Looks like I'll need to revise my napkin math a bit.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2009 - 8:26AM
#32
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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...I've shamelessly cribbed the entire "chassis" of this build for my next LFR (Living Forgotten Realms) character. The only thing I think I might be worried about is the cost of equipment (you have "free magic item" slots, one/level, for treasure rewards - a slot used is marked off permanently), as I'm assuming that campaign will be cash poor. On the bright side virtually all WOTC published material is open to the game, no matter how ridiculous (unless overruled or "nerfed" by the campaign itself, as some bits of cheese-insanity are).
I realize that char-op threads primarily focus on battlefield survivability, but I'm curious was skills and other non-combat equipment folks are going with for their rogue crossbowmen.
LFR has advantages and disadvantages. Compared to other PCs, you will be far in the rear ranks and often behind superior cover. Thus, you take little damage and have little need for spending your magic item bundle slots on armor, neck items, or similar defensive picks. Instead, buy a +1 Xbow, then later pick or buy a +2. Get an item or two that helps what you do, such as ammo and around 6th level you can be in position to buy Bracers of Archery. You can also eventually get a cloak of distortion or similar, but you can generally delay it to almost paragon. You have little other need for picks. However, there are many fun utility picks when it comes to items. Depending on who you play with and how you play, they can be worth getting and spendign bundles to aquire. LFR used to be (like 4E) dominated by traps that weren't worth the rogue's time. It was better to kill everything else than to spend several rounds making thievery checks. But, that is changing, with most newer mods having traps that can be turned off with one check, and that are well worth your time to do so. Thus, Unfettered Thieves' Tools (11th) are worth considering. Trickster's Mask and Rogue's Gloves are worth considering, even though they replace other items important to the build. (The gloves can be used before/after Caustic, but the +1 to hit from Headband of Intellect is tough). Boots of Eagerness are cool for moving around. There are several armors that have fun utilitarian things, such as Battle Harness. Battle Harness opens up a lot of tactical options if you want to later buy several weapons. For example, switching to a Transposing Weapon (teleports target, you and they switch locations) can be huge if you do something like deliberately enter a damaging area, then switch, or switch them amidst your melee friends, or just to get the rear rank guy out, or to get to an area that will offer superior cover).
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4 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2009 - 5:52PM
#33
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Your stats are illegal for a standard 22 point buy. You have two stats at 8 before racial. Thats a no-no. EDIT: OK, it looks like its just a typo. You list your base CHA as 10(8) but then show it as 13(+1 mod) at level 11, so I guess it is suposed to read 12(10).
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 12:53AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2003
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The introduction of bow mastery in PHBII. Without it, hand crossbows were very close in damage to our superior crossbow but not enough in my opinion to warrant the extra feats. With the increase crit range, it makes a very significant impact to the math and hand crossbows pull out ahead significantly leading to 10% extra attacks (which can become recursive) and high crit property which outweighs the increase in the damage die from d8 to d10 and the +1 to hit. The +1 to hit is also made a bit less important with the introduction of 'expertise' feats. This is sort of confusing (d8? hand crossbows are d6; normal crossbows are d8). Also, I'm sure it's right under my nose, but where does the extra critting from the hand crossbow come in again? It's not a high-crit weapon, and nothing in the front section of Rogue indicates special goodness. Since I primarily play low-level campaigns, I'll probably optimize with Superior + Expertise, and worry about retraining later.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 06, 2009 - 1:27AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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The introduction of bow mastery in PHBII. Without it, hand crossbows were very close in damage to our superior crossbow but not enough in my opinion to warrant the extra feats. With the increase crit range, it makes a very significant impact to the math and hand crossbows pull out ahead significantly leading to 10% extra attacks (which can become recursive) and high crit property which outweighs the increase in the damage die from d8 to d10 and the +1 to hit. The +1 to hit is also made a bit less important with the introduction of 'expertise' feats.
This is sort of confusing (d8? hand crossbows are d6; normal crossbows are d8). Also, I'm sure it's right under my nose, but where does the extra critting from the hand crossbow come in again? It's not a high-crit weapon, and nothing in the front section of Rogue indicates special goodness.
Since I primarily play low-level campaigns, I'll probably optimize with Superior + Expertise, and worry about retraining later.
There is a drow racial feat, Ruthless hunter I believe off the top of my head that turns hand crossbow to d8 and high crit.
Blah blah blah
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4 years ago ::
Nov 07, 2009 - 1:52AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2003
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Request: Could all listed feats in the build be given their exact name (i.e., where's "Crossbow Mastery"?), and also sourcebook? It would be helpful to us semi-noobs who don't have it all memorized....yet.  ----- Potential "cheese overruled" problems with "Two Fisted Shooter" (PHB, P267) Free Action: Free actions take almost no time or
effort. You can take as many free actions as you
want during your or another combatant’s turn. The
DM can restrict the number of free actions in a turn.
Examples: speaking a few sentences, dropping a held
item, letting go of a grabbed enemy. ....this obviously presents problems for the critmeister, especially if he's already driving the DM crazy due to neigh invulnerability. Two-Fisted Shooter....Prerequisite: Rogue
Benefit: You can treat the hand crossbow as an
off-hand weapon, and you can reload it one-handed
as a free action. When you score a critical hit and
have a hand crossbow in your off hand, you can make
a ranged basic attack with that weapon. While not directly worded so, a DM could reasonably parse the text to imply that the "triggering" crit must be from a weapon in the main hand -- and thus you'd need to be holding two hand crossbows to perform multiple ranged attacks. (Obviously a problem if you'd rather not fight with two crossbows). But let's say you do have two hand crossbows. You fire the "main" one, and crit. Awesome, take your free shot with the off hand. Get another crit. Fantastic! Think you get another one? "Now wait just a minute," says your cheese-minded DM; "you scored that crit with your off-hand, so now you're done with this infinite recursion funny business."
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4 years ago ::
Nov 07, 2009 - 2:28AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2003
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Maximum Firepower at Low-Level Build These first four feats are, of course, the first feats listed in the old Superior Crossbow build. 1) Weapon Proficiency: Superior Crossbow
2) Distant Advantage (retrain to ?????? at 16th once you receive Hide in Plain Sight) ...the only reason we don't take Distant Advantage right away at first is because we eventually intend to retrain it, and there may be a weapon-specific feat which requires a previous feat as a prerequisite (and so we need a weapon feat at first level). (I put ?????? instead of Weapon Focus because I think Weapon Focus is a pretty tepid choice at 16th...if you've been living that long without an extra +1 damage, you probably don't need it at that point.) 4) Weapon Expertise : Superior Crossbow
6) MC Feat: Warrior of the Wild Superior/Expertise enjoys +1/+1* attack/damage vs. Ruthless Hunter/Two Fisted Shooter/Expertise over virtually the entire life of the character. Prior to Two Fisted Shooter (taken in paragon level in the current build), the hand crossbow is a damage underperformer, and requires an extra feat slot for Two Fisted Shooter. (*Every 20th roll, the Two Fisted Shooter hand crossbow earns an extra d8, or ~4.5dmg, from High Crit. However, the +3 prof Superior crossbow probalistically will have realized one additional attack success during the same 20 rolls due to the +1 to hit.) It's also a tactile pleasure to roll a bunch of these bad boys several times a round:
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4 years ago ::
Nov 12, 2009 - 2:53PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2004
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I love this build.
First few sessions, my GM was speechless and maybe a bit annoyed that I took no damage, because of my hit and hide routine. Awesome power in that superior crossbow!!!!
Now, he has wised up and decided this is not going to happen anymore (he stated that it was not fair that I take no damage while everyone else does)....I got enemy rogues that do the same snipe and hide stuff to me and the party, and a recurring villian that has mega-perception and mega-stealth abilities that hates rogues.
Essentially, my teeth has been pulled out and combat advantage is no longer available since I am always seen and cannot see them.
Enough of my rant.
Good job, Faytte, on this great build...I love it no matter what.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 12, 2009 - 3:21PM
#39
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2007
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I love this build.
First few sessions, my GM was speechless and maybe a bit annoyed that I took no damage, because of my hit and hide routine. Awesome power in that superior crossbow!!!!
Now, he has wised up and decided this is not going to happen anymore (he stated that it was not fair that I take no damage while everyone else does)....I got enemy rogues that do the same snipe and hide stuff to me and the party, and a recurring villian that has mega-perception and mega-stealth abilities that hates rogues.
Essentially, my teeth has been pulled out and combat advantage is no longer available since I am always seen and cannot see them.
Enough of my rant.
Good job, Faytte, on this great build...I love it no matter what.
That sucks. There is nothing quite like it when a DM ruins the game for you.
Usually my response to being intentionally thrwarted to the point that my character doesn't even play like I'd like it to is to get bored and lose interest in the campaign. Sure it's DM's job to make things challenging...
It isn't like you not getting hit is making the game easier on your party, damage that would have been shared by the whole party is now being taken by Party-1 PCs, which means they're running out of surges faster than they otherwise would. If your DM wanted to play up the consequences of your character, he'd just put time limits on your quests and push your whole party to the point of running out of surges. When they look at you and you're not missing any while they're crying for an Extended rest, then you'll take some heat from those at the table which is a much more suitable way to manipulate player actions.
I'm sorry your DM took the easy way out.
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4 years ago ::
Nov 13, 2009 - 12:47AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2003
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In my first LFR mod with the 1st-level character, I had three mooks rush my darkness and just fan around inside at -5. I got hit. (My darkness was also a safe place for them to hide from the party's minotaur barbarian -- how's that for irony!)
Smart enemy tactics can also stymie you. For instance, a smart opponant aware of where you came from last time can simply ready an attack to be triggered the moment you emerge from your place of concealment (a sound strategy until you have Hide in Plain Sight). A magic-user can simply cast an area spell over your darkness zone, such as Stinking Cloud or Hager's Hunger Cube.
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