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Nov 2, 2009 -- 8:49PM, Shakiko wrote:

Did Max ever give an example of a character concept that he could not play using alignment?

No, but he made his point about his opinion of alignment very clear, atleast to me and I agree that alignment can be as confusing and frustrating as a DM wants it to be. In the end, alignment is up to the DM, unless its a cool DM (like myself   ) who actually listens to his/her players.

Whats the word I'm looking for here? Oh yeah, Compromise. A word some folks need to keep in mind.

Nov 2, 2009 -- 6:28PM, Maxperson wrote:

Nov 2, 2009 -- 6:20PM, Alyri wrote:

I care as a Dm.  I grew tired of that playstyle years ago.

Notice I didn't say you are playing wrong.

I just don't run or play games in that style anymore.

That's fine.  I'm one of the most vocal anti-alignment people on these forums, but I haven't said you are doing it wrong if you use it and enjoy it.  I just don't think it needs to be included as part of the game.  It's easy enough to add, especially now that there are almost no mechanics that use it.  And I firmly believe that it can and does hinder the developement of new players.  If it didn't, then I wouldn't care one way or the other whether it sits in the books or not, but I strongly feel that it does more harm than good.  That's not to say that people who know what all alignment entails and choose it are playing wrong.

You may not have said 'playing wrong', but you have on more than one occasion said it is a crutch for people who do.

I disagree with alignment hurting starting players.

Nov 2, 2009 -- 10:23PM, Maxperson wrote:

Nov 2, 2009 -- 8:59PM, Duke5150 wrote:

No, but he made his point about his opinion of alignment very clear, atleast to me and I agree that alignment can be as confusing and frustrating as a DM wants it to be. In the end, alignment is up to the DM, unless its a cool DM (like myself   ) who actually listens to his/her players.

Whats the word I'm looking for here? Oh yeah, Compromise. A word some folks need to keep in mind.

I sent it to you this afternoon.  Did it not arrive?

Oh? I rarely check my homepage. I'll check it out and get back to you tomarrow. I'm about to retire. Busy day tomarrow.

Nov 2, 2009 -- 9:42AM, Alyri wrote:

Depends really.

It's been as simple as "we all agree not to be buttheads with each other"  to so complex to need 3 pages to complete.

 

My current manifesto will include:

1. any house rules

2. expectations of the players(be on time, inform DM if cannot make the session, table chatter[i.e. hey dude you see that new movie trailer/video game/etc] to a minimum, etc.)

3. expectations of the DM (have material ready, be fair, dont punish players, etc.)

4. Game rules clarifications(this can tie back into houserules)

5. campaign rules(this also can tie back into houserules)

It is printed out and signed by everyone involved.  If you refuse to sign, you do not play.  Simple as that.  If you break the manifesto you get booted.  Simple as that.  Anyone has the power to boot someone.  Then we make characters for the game, together as a group.

It can take one or even two sessions to complete.  I have grown tired of playing in a 2-6 session game.  When I DM a game it is for a minimum of 20-24 sessions (6 months, meeting 1/week).  Taking 2 sessions before we start to get rid of so many game stalling headaches is well worth it imnsho.

ymmv

I see what you mean, get the floor rules set right from the start and it makes everything else a lot easier. No unexpected suprises that way.

Nov 3, 2009 -- 4:52AM, williamhm75 wrote:

Nov 2, 2009 -- 8:53PM, Herrozerro wrote:

Nov 2, 2009 -- 8:49PM, williamhm75 wrote:

Because at some point I might be in a game with a dm that thinks alignment is a good idea if it is in the books.

I would say in that game you take the option of not playing an alignment as is said in the books.

the whole point is alignment has no need to be in the books there is no reason to include it anymore.  It's too confusing and inane to be of any use what so ever.

I disagree, as have others.  One could argue that you dont need Gender or Age on the character sheet either.  Its not like they have anything to do with the game either.  In fact Im mad that they wasted space on such useless items.  even more space on the character sheet then the Alignment!

But on a more serious note, 4e's alignment is nothing like you say it is, it is the most giving of all of them despite what max says it is broad strokes compared to tiny boxes.