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Jul 23, 2011 -- 6:13AM, Tech-Priest wrote:

Jul 17, 2011 -- 7:09PM, zelink551 wrote:

You lose the Regen and the ability to use another encounter power, but you gain the +1 to attack and +2 to saving throws, in addition to the two DS utilies. So basically yes, you should be fine Tech

Which would you suggest, or would staying Demigod be better?

I would lean towards Destined Scion. +1 to attack is awesome, and +2 to saves, esp. with all the effects at epic, is going to pay dividends. Epic Recovery also allows you to reuse it (if you have ways), as it is a daily power vs. A feature. The Demigod capstone is better, but the first 9 levels of DS are better, and the +1 to all attacks is pretty freaking good.

Sounds good, I'll let my friend know, thanks H!

Agree with above posters on Destinied Scion

Jul 25, 2011 -- 5:52PM, Philip wrote:

Agree with above posters on Destinied Scion

So Philip what is your rogue like to play?  It would be interesting to get a encounter break down of how she plays in your group.  Have you found that she rarely if ever gets hit or even attacked due to your Catch 22 situations? Or does your DM try really hard to kill you or disable you in some fashion? 

I am just curious as to how this pans out in a game.  Have you found that she is fun to play outside of combat in Skill challenges and RP type situations as well?   I know I have said this before but I am a really big fan of this character Idea, because Halflings are my favorite character race, and they synergies so well with Rogues.

Anyway just thought I would ask as to how you like to play this character.

Well I tend to try to keep some distance from the party to avoid burst.  I like to run through as many mobs as a can and target either a ranged or caster, whatever seems the most nasty.  As soon as you get Stunning Strike you can lock up and annoy someone.  The GM hates it when she is forced to attack me and generally does what she can to avoid attacking her.  When the GM can target fort or will she goes for it, but Nimble Dodge helps out here.  I also took all the Guttersnipe Powers to make her more annoying the funniest one is Infuriating Taunt where you give an enemy -2 to attack untill it hits you, its very fitting with the theme. 

On you turn you can also look for bloodied enemies and just finish them off.  I'm not going to lie, in a party with a few optimizers I am one of the most powerful characters, and I always cry when I take a little bit of damage and ask for healz when I don't need them.  Only once in 15 lvls of play did I get low on surges, so 6 surges isn't a drain on the party.

i really really like this build, and i've been trying to mess around with it as i'm starting a level 14 character soon and wanted to use the stats you've used here, however compared to many other builds i've looked at here you only present level 1 and 30 stats and not level by level which i find alot easyer to use as it makes it easyer (for me) to see the reasoning for different choices, so i'm having a hard time recreating things like ability scores and equipment for level 14...
should be mentioned that i've had some downtime not playing 4ed so my problems might simply be that i'm too out of the old ways of thinking, but you think you could help me out with atleast a idea of what i should be looking at here??

also i'm kinda new to the boards so the term frost cheese means little to me

i admit the answers to my questions might very well be here in the 26 pages of text, but if they are i've missed them :s

i really hope you can find the time to help me out, but if not i understand...

Nighteyes

Start with the array 

html_removed
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 10, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 14.
With racial bonuses to Dex/CHa
and put points in every level in Dex and Cha.
And if you're looking for explanation for every level, I would take a look at the rogue's handbook, as it goes more in depth into every power, ability, item, and feat. 

thank you very much
as i said, been out of the loop for a long time, but that should have been obvious ot me
*facepalms*

13 Str is required for Light Shield. 

The array you want to start with is listed in the level 1 snapshot:

Str 13 Con 10 Dex 18(+2) Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 13(+2) then +Dex/Cha for ever on.

Oct 4, 2010 -- 6:02PM, lordduskblade wrote:

How are you guaranteeing Combat Advantage against a crowd like that, though? Blinding Barrage AP into Lashing Blade? Permafrost won't help you against multiple targets, and Radiant Advantage requires Cleric MC and doesn't show up until Epic. If you show me how that happens it might be a bit better, but otherwise...

Well, you can pull off a decent trick as an artful dodger (halflings preferred, but not required).

1) Take Reckless Scramble (MP1) as a heroic feat
2) Take Vaulting Charge (D381) as a 13th level attack or First and Final Strike (D381) as a 27th level attack
3) Take Daring Gamble (MP2) as a 10th level utility

Then you wait until your first full turn of combat.

On your first turn:

Minor Action: you activate Daring Gamble, which means that if any enemy attacks you before the start of your next turn, that enemy grants CA until the end of the encounter.  Yes, CA until the end of the encounter is pretty slick, but you don't normally have a way to get enemies to attack you, do you?  Answer: Yes, you do.

Standard Action: Use Vaulting Charge or First and Final Strike, which allow you to shift your speed and stab someone, moving through enemy spaces in the process.  Reckless Scramble allows you to turn a shift into a move of the shift distance + 2, meaning that it now provokes OAs from every enemy.  Vaulting Charge and First and Final Strike grant a power bonus to your AC equal to your Cha modifier plus an additional 2 since you're an Artful Dodger (which you need to be to use Reckless Scramble).  Being an Artful Dodger gives you a bonus to AC vs OAs equal to your Cha modifier, a halfling grants a bonus to AC vs OAs on top of that, plus if you're even halfway optimized for defense in general (or defense against OAs in particular), you're going to be all but untouchable.  An Opportunity Attack counts as the enemy attacking you, so that's a miss for them (plus damage if you're a Shadow Assassin) and free CA until the end of the encounter vs. that sucker for you.

Move Action: Provoke some more OAs, my friend.  Make sure everyone has had a chance to take a swipe at your glistening flesh (it is glistening because it is made of solid diamond at the moment).  When combined with the previous movement, on this turn you can move at least twice your speed + 2 or more squares (I don't think Long Step stacks with Reckless Scramble, but you can run on your move action to increase the distance, or use Reckless Scramble with some sort of shifting power, etc).  It shouldn't be to hard to trace a path around/through every opponent worth fighting given the size of most skirmishes.  If you can't get enough movement to cover absolutely everyone, then consider if you're going to weave through the melee, or prioritize provoking the artillery/controllers in the back line, since they tend to have poor MBAs and are not so easy to flank.

End of Turn: Sit around and wait for someone to attack you.  Now you get to use your defensive interrupts and the power bonus to AC granted by Vaulting Charge/First and Final Strike.  Stack up those misses, then go to town on your foes next round.  Enjoy your permanent CA.  Maybe start next round with Lashing Blade, or make the most of Shimmering Blade or a nice Whirlwind Sneak Attack once you hit Epic.

This trick works to a lesser degree before level 10 if you have enough room for Opportunity Knocks (MP2), which grants CA if a target misses you with an OA.  You can use Reckless Scramble + Acrobatic Strike to gain the ability to move three squares before or after you attack, or use Harlequin Style + Deft Strike to generate CA then open fire (either moving around the target for melee, or backing up and throwing a dagger at the target).

Special mention to Defensive Advantage: It gives you a +2 bonus to AC whenever you have CA against the target.  If you get a high initiative (which you should do, you're a rogue), you should have CA against everyone who hasn't acted yet (helping you dodge OAs like a champ).  If this stunt goes well, you will have CA against a whole lot of people until the end of the encounter.  If it doesn't go well, well... you're a rogue, and you've got ways to make enemies grant CA that don't involve flanking them, especially if you have good control in the party.

There's a load of stuff that boosts your defenses against OAs, like the set bonus for Blade Dancer's Regalia or the Elusive Action Ki Focus (do you even have to be proficient with a ki focus to wear a +1 Elusive Action Ki Focus and gain the use of its property?), but note that despite how ridiculous your AC vs OAs can get, it's still vulnerable to being hit on a 20.  Second Chance and other defensive powers won't help you because it's an immediate action and not a free/no action ability (and thus only works when it's not your turn).  But the target only needs to attack you for Daring Gamble to activate, so it's not the worst thing in the world.  Also note that your defense against OAs is highest when the target is attacking your AC- basic attacks against your fortitude, reflex, or will can still hurt, and basic attacks against your fortitude, reflex or will that inflict status conditions can be a serious pain.  These guys are relatively rare though.  Even controllers usually just take a basic swing at you with a stick.  There are still ways to boost your other defenses against OAs, such as Resplendant Boots (AV2) or Amulet of Adept Movements (PsiP), or having an Empathic Ardent in the party (especially one with Widen Mantle.  You might even get some use out of Mantle of Readiness).  Of course, anything that boosts your defenses in general like Helm of Able Defense will help here.

Also note that this can't force anyone to make an OA against your beastly defenses, and if they don't take a swing it won't mean a thing.  This usually isn't a problem unless your opponents all happen to be psychic and instantly figure out what you're up to before you do it even if they've never encountered you beforehand (no, I'm not bitter, why do you ask?).  Of course, they only need to take a swing at you once for this to pay off (dogpiling you on their own time between the end of your first turn and the beginning of your second still counts, and your AC boost from Opening Move/Vaulting Charge/First and Final Strike will help against that), and you're an artful dodger- bluff your way into making them do it.  And if they still won't take the bait, then at least relish the opportunity to to move about the battlefield with impunity.  I'd keep a back-up method of gaining CA, such as Frostcheese, Cunning Stalker (HotFK), Expert Sneak (MP2, great for a control-heavy party)  or Opportunity Knocks (MP2, also goes well with Reckless scramble and the whole boosted defenses against OAs).

If you need someone to make an OA against you for sure, you can use Bloody Path too. It is a Daily and as such not something you can do all the time.
It is, however, a very obvious choice for an "annoying rogue"
Also, together with Daring Gamble it will give CA vs everyone you can reach.

So, i've read all 26 pages of this guide (wow you guys are productive), played around with the CB and several versions of this character, read LDBs guide yet still have a few questions that i must have missed the answer to somewhere (that amount of reading on a monitor does take a strain )

1) in regard to frostcheese how are you getting CA on your first attack?
Lasting Frost
once per turn, the first target you hit with a power that has the cold keyword gains vulnerability 5 cold after the attack. the vulnerability last untill the end of your next turn
Wintertouched
when attackign a creature that is vulnerable to cold, you gain combat advantage when you use a power that has the cold keyword


am i just missing something in the stacking order or something??



2) i've noticed that you mention you can Sneak Attack once per turn as opposed to once a round.
this means that i can Sneak attack on oppertunity attacks??
and are there any other ways (as you have already ruled out delaying and readying an action) to gain attacks on multiple turns during a round?



3) in regards to Mordenkrads post would you qualify as having been attack by them when the power specifies they use their attack against you to hit themselves??
and if you do is it then technically a miss meaning your SA Ripost??


am really looking forward to getting back into 4ed with this build and hope i will have great fun

Rogues generally have CA on the first round of attacks, by rolling high on initiative and/or picking up Superior Reflexes.  For CA against targets they haven't hit yet but are attacking later on, rogues usually have a fair number of ways such as flanking or attacking targets with status conditions, plus a variety of rogue utility powers.

And yes, you can sneak attack on OAs, and leader-granted powers.  If you can find a way to generate CA on a bunch of targets at once, then powers like Lashing Blade or Shimmering Blade allow you to sneak attack a bunch of opponents.  In regards to Mordenkrads post, I don't think the wording on Bloody Path counts as the target attacking/missing you, just attacking itself instead of you.

For a short time I was low slashing then delaying a standard action attack for my team mates action then attacking out of turn for a second sneak attack, but that takes away your ability to immediate interupt which you like to save for Second Chance or another interupt. 

The wording of Bloody Path doesn't count for Shadow Riposte sadly. 

Frost Cheese isn't perfect, but at the moment its the best we have.

Aug 2, 2011 -- 9:29AM, LightWarden wrote:

And yes, you can sneak attack on OAs, and leader-granted powers.  If you can find a way to generate CA on a bunch of targets at once, then powers like Lashing Blade or Shimmering Blade allow you to sneak attack a bunch of opponents.  In regards to Mordenkrads post, I don't think the wording on Bloody Path counts as the target attacking/missing you, just attacking itself instead of you.

You can still only sneak attack once a turn (unless you have slaying action, or Whirlwind Sneak Attack).

Whirlwind with Steel Entrapment on the first turn is pretty cool though.

OP snipped with all the skill of the aforementioned Most Annoying Rogue Ever^tm

I've only left the cold dairy free version at both top and bottom. But its in the other too.
Have i misunderstood something? Please see italics below.

Oct 17, 2009 -- 2:24PM, Philip wrote:

Halfling, Rogue

FEATS
Level 1: Shield Proficiency (Light)

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Rapier, Dagger (3), Adventurer's Kit, Thieves' Tools, Fine Clothing, Light Shield

Level 30 Snapshot Halfling, Rogue, Shadow Assassin, Destined Scion

FEATS
Level 1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 2: Blade  and Buckler Duelist
Level 4: Light Blade Expertise
Level  6: Backstabber
Level 8: Lost in a Crowd
Level 10: Nimble  Dodge
Level 11: Improved Defenses
Level 12: Melee  Training (Dexterity)
Level 14: Repel Charge
Level 16: Nimble Blade
Level  18: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 20: Shield Mastery (retrained  to Shield Specialization at level 21)
Level 21: Light Blade Mastery
Level 22: Epic Fortitude
Level 24: Epic Will
Level 26: Martial Mastery
Level 28: Armor Proficiency (Hide)
Level 30: Shield Mastery

ITEMS
Helm of Able Defense (paragon tier), Light Shield, Rhythm Blade Spiked shield +1, Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Boots of Eagerness (heroic tier), Master's Blade Rapier +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), , Cloak of Displacement +6, Ring of Tenacious Will (epic tier), Shadow Band (epic tier), Displacer Elderhide Armor +6, Solitaire (Violet) (epic tier), Zephyr Boots (epic tier), Belt of Vim (epic tier), Teamstrike Tattoo (paragon tier)

Why spend the gold with no rapier proficiency?

No offense meant, i'm only on my first 4ED character myself, i just don't see the benefit.

Aug 18, 2011 -- 1:45AM, Obi1Jedidroid wrote:

OP snipped with all the skill of the aforementioned Most Annoying Rogue Ever^tm

I've only left the cold dairy free version at both top and bottom. But its in the other too.
Have i misunderstood something? Please see italics below.Why spend the gold with no rapier proficiency?

No offense meant, i'm only on my first 4ED character myself, i just don't see the benefit.

Missed the important bit

Background: Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant benefit for Rapier)
 
He has rapier proficiency from his background. 

Thanks rj

I've been trying this build for a few months now and looking it over repeatedly and i've noticed something recently.

why do you use Shield Specialization and not Shield Proficiency: Heavy at level 20?
on the surface they seem to do the same thing, but actually they don't according to my grasp of how bonuses stack.
Shield Specialization gives you a feat bonus of +1 to AC and to Reflex, but you already get a +x (depending on tier) feat bonus to Reflex from Improved Defenses and feat bonuses does not stack so Shield Specialization only gives a +1 to AC where as Shield Proficiency: Heavy increases your Base Shield Bonus to +2, ofcause you need to buy a new shield, but at this time that amount of money should be neglible?

please tell me if there is something i'm unaware of that i've overlooked??

Oct 16, 2011 -- 11:11AM, nmNighteyes wrote:

I've been trying this build for a few months now and looking it over repeatedly and i've noticed something recently.

why do you use Shield Specialization and not Shield Proficiency: Heavy at level 20?
on the surface they seem to do the same thing, but actually they don't according to my grasp of how bonuses stack.
Shield Specialization gives you a feat bonus of +1 to AC and to Reflex, but you already get a +x (depending on tier) feat bonus to Reflex from Improved Defenses and feat bonuses does not stack so Shield Specialization only gives a +1 to AC where as Shield Proficiency: Heavy increases your Base Shield Bonus to +2, ofcause you need to buy a new shield, but at this time that amount of money should be neglible?

please tell me if there is something i'm unaware of that i've overlooked??

The answer is probably because Blade and Buckler Duelist only works with a light shield.

*grins and feels slightly silly*
yeah probably

Is it just me, or does the Yakuza theme look really silly good with this build?

I had tons of fun with this build.  The new chainmail shirt boosts AC some more.  It's also fun when you buy lots and lots of daggers.  Get a pinning dagger, immobilize the elite solo monster, use Phantom Chaseures (sp?) to conceal, stay adjacent to keep him immobile, have your party move out of range of his best moves, and then let everyone plink away while he has only two choices: 1. Attack, miss the rogue, and take riposte damage  2. Make a non-optimal ranged attack, get hit by an opportunity attack with sneak attack, and barely do any damage.

Other fun?  Take heavy blade and get a githyanki (sp?) long knife.  Use item dailies to send the solo elite away for a turn.  He'll get no attacks for two rounds, but get hit by you and your buddies.

Great guide!

If I can't take gritty sergeant because of the campaign's setting should I take rapier proficiency at all? if so when is a good time to take it?

Sorry if this is already asked, there's so many replies to the thread now, and afaik it hasn't (from searching).

Your prolly better off with a dagger anyways, both are very comparible in damage.  So yeah if you can't take the background just go dagger.

Hmm I was thinking maybe, since x[w] becomes sad when using a dagger, I might take rapier instead of light blade expertise and only switch back later when it starts scaling in paragon/epic

Oh, wow.  How have I never seen this thread before?  I'm actually currently building a character that's very much like this.  It would have helped to have read this thread in the first place, because I felt like I was building my character from the ground up.  Oh, well.  No new ideas under the sun, right?  Anyway, I'm currently level 6, so the build isn't exactly in full-swing yet, but it's still very good at what it does.  I've got Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Defensive Mobility, and Opportunity Knocks, and my character is a Halfling Artful Dodger rogue, very much like what you described in your opening post.  Right now, my AC is 22, I think, and it springs up to 29 on Opportunity Attacks.  At level 7, I'll actually be re-training Defensive Mobility to Weapon Proficiency: Parrying Dagger, because I'd have the same defense vs OAs, but my "standard" AC would be higher.

Like I said, I'm at 22 AC right now, with 29 vs Opportunity Attacks.  With a Parrying Dagger Rhythm Blade, I'd be up to 24 AC, while remaining at 29 vs OAs.  I didn't know about the Parrying Dagger thing at first, or I'd have done that to begin with.  Anyway, I'm wondering what kinds of other tricks I can use to increase my mobility and elusiveness?  As far as Items go, I'm looking at Boots of the Fencing Master, because I could potentially gain the bonus every single round by Shifting as a Move Action, and using Deft Strike for positioning.  As long as I can provoke an Opportunity Attack, I should be able to maintain Combat Advantage, as well.

Cloak of Distortion looks great, too.  But I saw that you suggested the Cloak of Displacement.  Which do you feel is stronger, overall?
 
All in all, I really like this character.  I'm actually pretty happy about giving up a bit of the character's stopping power to increase his survivability via elusiveness.  It feels very "in character".  This is actually the first character I've built in 4th edition that plays very much the same way I, like, imagine him actually fighting.  Does that make sense?  He's just this little halfling rogue, who's tumbling around the battlefield, ducking and rolling underneath enemy attacks so he can catch them off-guard with low slashes of his own. 

So far, this is an awful lot of fun.    

Yeah I came up with this character concept because my little rogue would always go first and jump right for the archers/mages/ranged people in the back and then get swarmed on and beg for heals.  So I thought it would be cool to make a character that was really really hard to hit.  The idea is that you try to have defenses as high as possible so that halfling agility become alot more powerful.  If your enemy only hits you on a 16+ then when you make them reroll they will probably miss.  Thats why I choose items that add to your defenses over pretty much anything else.

Philip,

First...thank you for all your hard work to make Halfling Rogues even more awesome.

Second...if you can put it in a nutshell, what would you say are the major advantages/disadvantages of each of your builds over the other (Frostcheese/Non-Frostcheese)?

Thank you,

Koll Underfoot, the slipperiest Halfling this side of Krynn (how's that for a throwback?)

[EDIT]  Didn't you also have a Daggermaster version, or some other 3rd build, in your first post?

[EDIT #2] It looks as though some text has been clipped from that first post.  It goes from "If you want more damage replace" as an unfinished sentence to "How much defense is too much?"  I'm thinking I remember the Daggermaster build between there somewhere.

Ok, does anyone have the Daggermaster/3rd build still available?  Doesn't have to just be Philip, I understand he may be busy.

Only difference is the paragon path if it is the frost cheese one. If I recall correctly.

Feb 27, 2012 -- 8:30PM, Limond wrote:

Only difference is the paragon path if it is the frost cheese one. If I recall correctly.

Here's the part that got cut off at the end...

The Daggermaster version uses a dagger and a dagger offand.  It makes use of the Two-Weapon feat line, and Repel Charge since it already has Melee Training.  It does lose out on Shadow Assassin's Riposte but tries to make up for it with defensive bonuses from powers and feats (although less than the Shadow Assassin Build), and it also makes use of Spark Slippers for some added deterrence.  If you want more damage replace

...so it mentions using defensive bonuses from Feats & Powers, and Spark Slippers.  I can't tell for sure if the PP is the only difference.  Well, if Philip doesn't get back soon, I can always try one of his other 2 builds.  I won't need my Halfling Rogue for a couple of weeks at least.

Thanks Limond.

I'm sure at least some of you are starting to think of me as a pain in the...neck...by now, but I've found the 3rd build that Philip posted!!  It finally occured to me to look for quoted copies of it in the replies.  Lo and behold!

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Its the "NEW Frost Cheese + Daggermaster" build listed in that post!  Whoomp, there it is!

Best theme in everyones opinion for this build?

Yakuza looks like it would be pretty good, Ruthless Demonstration fits right in with the 'hard to hit' concept.

I should probably update again, its probably a little clunky adding themes would be good too, when I played this character I used Guttersnipe, but I think there are probably some better ones these days.

Feb 21, 2012 -- 10:22AM, ChaunceyK wrote:

Philip,

First...thank you for all your hard work to make Halfling Rogues even more awesome.

Second...if you can put it in a nutshell, what would you say are the major advantages/disadvantages of each of your builds over the other (Frostcheese/Non-Frostcheese)?

Thank you,

Koll Underfoot, the slipperiest Halfling this side of Krynn (how's that for a throwback?)

[EDIT]  Didn't you also have a Daggermaster version, or some other 3rd build, in your first post?

[EDIT #2] It looks as though some text has been clipped from that first post.  It goes from "If you want more damage replace" as an unfinished sentence to "How much defense is too much?"  I'm thinking I remember the Daggermaster build between there somewhere.

Sorry about the delay, I do really read these forums, I am going to look at my thread again and fix any mistakes I may have made when I last edited it.  Frost Cheese version is just better imo, but some people have a problem with cheese.  Basically, if you choose dagger master you don't give the enemy any reason not to attack you, besides really high defenses.  I found that the dm (my wife would go out of her way to try and beat down my character because my character was soo annoying) so making the enemies pay for attacking her was a major plus (shadow assassin's riposte).  But in a party full of optimizers or if you have someone with a bigger target on their head, then daggermaster's higher dps would be better.

You seem to be right, I don't have a Daggermaster Version anymore, I will have correct this.  I can't think of anything that really changes though, if you just switch Daggermaster in for Shadow Assassin.  Other than you can boost your Cha a little higher and dump str, since its no longer needed for Light Blade Mastery. 

I am open to suggestions for Themes, most of my current theme research has gone into the pyromancer that I'm currently playing.

Wait so how is the rhythym blade spiked shield being worn againi?

Mar 12, 2012 -- 10:54AM, Koval wrote:

Wait so how is the rhythym blade spiked shield being worn againi?

The CB says its a Superior one-handed melee weapon, if that helps any.

Hmm, but don't you need the feat to wear it in this case the build doesn't though?

The only thing having a proficiency feat gives you is the proficiency bonus to attack with the spiked shield.  The build has proficiency for the light shield part of it.  Its a debate that went on alot about 2 years back.  Its generally assumed by the community that this trick works.

But, if you or your gm has a problem with it, you can always take a parrying dagger, and loose out on the reflex bonus of the light shield, or just stick with a shield and lose out on the +1 AC and reflex.  Its not that big of a deal.

Thanks

I'd like to make a suggestion for the Arms slot.  The Shield of Eyes (Level 4 Uncommon) adds your Shield bonus to avoiding OAs...more Defense.  I'm at Level 9 right now, so I prefer the idea of +2 vs OAs once I become a Shadow Assassin over the idea of +2 damage...because I plan on provoking as much as possible for the Shadow Assassin Riposte.

Mar 25, 2012 -- 6:05PM, ChaunceyK wrote:

I'd like to make a suggestion for the Arms slot.  The Shield of Eyes (Level 4 Uncommon) adds your Shield bonus to avoiding OAs...more Defense.  I'm at Level 9 right now, so I prefer the idea of +2 vs OAs once I become a Shadow Assassin over the idea of +2 damage...because I plan on provoking as much as possible for the Shadow Assassin Riposte.

That would require giving up the Rhythm Blade enchant on the spiked shield, which is constant +1 bonus to AC and Ref.

So, maybe I'm missing something but on the first page a Daggermaster version is listed, however there is no build for him on that page. Shouldn't there be?


J 

This is actually discussed on the prior page and another poster linked to a post where the build was quoted.

Mar 25, 2012 -- 7:19PM, rjsilverthorn wrote:

Mar 25, 2012 -- 6:05PM, ChaunceyK wrote:

I'd like to make a suggestion for the Arms slot.  The Shield of Eyes (Level 4 Uncommon) adds your Shield bonus to avoiding OAs...more Defense.  I'm at Level 9 right now, so I prefer the idea of +2 vs OAs once I become a Shadow Assassin over the idea of +2 damage...because I plan on provoking as much as possible for the Shadow Assassin Riposte.

That would require giving up the Rhythm Blade enchant on the spiked shield, which is constant +1 bonus to AC and Ref.

I'm talking about going Philip's Frostcheese-build & using Shield of Eyes in the Arms slot in place of Iron Armbands of Power.  I tried taking the Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield as you suggested, but its in red and won't let me put it in the Arms slot...it shows up in my Off-Hand slot, and still won't equip (presumably because I'm not proficient with it).

Am I missing something?

Just noticed something I don't understand about the Frostcheese build and its items...

ITEMS
Helm of Able Defense (paragon tier), Light Shield, Ring of Tenacious Will (epic tier), Shadow Band (epic tier), Cloak of Displacement +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Boots of Striding (heroic tier), Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Frost Dagger +6, Gloves of Ice (epic tier), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier), Rhythm Blade Spiked shield +1, Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Footpads, Inquisitive's Kit, Thieves' Tools, Displacer Elderhide Armor +6, Belt of Vim (epic tier)

...look at the 3 items I've highlighted.  All go in the Weapon/Off-Hand slots.  How do I fit 3 items into 2 slots?  Can one of them go into a different slot, because I can't find one that accepts it.

Frost Dagger in one hand, Spiked Shield in the other, Light Shield on the arms.

Apr 5, 2012 -- 9:09PM, DuelistDelSol wrote:

Frost Dagger in one hand, Spiked Shield in the other, Light Shield on the arms.

The CB won't let me put the Light Shield on the arms.  Plus, the Iron Armbands of Power go on the arms.

Apr 5, 2012 -- 9:24PM, ChaunceyK wrote:

Apr 5, 2012 -- 9:09PM, DuelistDelSol wrote:

Frost Dagger in one hand, Spiked Shield in the other, Light Shield on the arms.

The CB won't let me put the Light Shield on the arms.  Plus, the Iron Armbands of Power go on the arms.

Try switching the shields around, I may have gotten the order wrong.

I swear yuo're able to put mundane shields on the offhand, though they might have changed that...

[EDIT] And no, you're never going to be able to put Iron Armbands of Power on a character that has both a Spiked and mundane Shield going. Something's gonna have to occupy the arms slot... 

Neither shield is showing as a choice for the Arms slot.  Could it be that at one time, the Spiked Shield was considered a "shield" and not a "light blade"?

But now I'm even more confused...I thought the Items listed at the end of each of Philip's builds were the total items equipped/carried/used.  Why then would the Iron Armbands of Power be listed?

I don't think he is trying to use both shields, I assumed the plan shield was just a leftover piece of mundane gear.  He is main handing a frost dagger and off handing the spiked shield which, enchanted as a weapon, doesn't occupy the arm slot. That leaves him free to use the IAOP. There really wouldn't be any point in using both the spiked shield and a light shield at the same time anyway.

Alright then, regardless of what was intended as optional or not, here's what I've got for my Level 9 Halfling Rogue (shooting for Shadow Assassin once I hit Paragon).  The general idea of Philip's builds is a huge influence...

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Koll Underfoot, level 9
Halfling, Rogue (Scoundrel)
Build: Trickster Rogue
Rogue Tactics Option: Artful Dodger
Rogue Option: Scoundrel Weapon Talent
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 10, DEX 22, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 18
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 10, DEX 18, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 14
 
 
AC: 26 Fort: 16 Ref: 26 Will: 20
HP: 74 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 18
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Athletics +9, Insight +9, Perception +9, Stealth +17, Thievery +17
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +3, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +4, Endurance +4, Heal +4, History +3, Intimidate +8, Nature +4, Religion +3, Streetwise +8
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Halfling Racial Power: Second Chance
Rogue Attack 1: Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Opening Move
Rogue Attack 1: Blinding Barrage
Rogue Utility 2: Sneak in the Attack
Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash
Rogue Attack 5: Bloodbath
Rogue Utility 6: Swift Parry
Rogue Attack 7: Lashing Blade
Rogue Attack 9: Knockout
 
FEATS
Level 1: Defensive Mobility
Level 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 4: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 6: Backstabber
Level 8: Nimble Dodge
Level 9: Light Blade Expertise
 
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit
Climber's Kit
Thieves' Tools
Lantern
Belt Pouch (empty)
Camouflaged Clothing
Footpads
Disguise Kit
Glass Cutter
Fine Clothing
Frost Brand Dagger +2 x1
Inquisitive's Kit
Rhythm Blade Dagger +1 x1
Shield of Eyes x1
Blending Leather Armor +2 x1
Cloak of Displacement +2 x1
====== End ======

...what I aimed for was maximing my Attacks (+19 to-hit with CA) & also my bonuses vs OAs (+10) so I can dart in with a Deft Strike and then Move (not shift) with my Move Action so the Fighter can take an OA vs him when he takes his OA vs me. I'm not thrilled with my Fort at this level, but with Nimble Dodge I should be fine.  I've also got some nice Minor, Immediate & Oportunity attack powers as well to help me increase my DPR.

Feedback is appreciated.

I think it looks good, Chauncey. I just rolled a lvl 10 rogue for a frest campaign a couple of days ago, and came to many of the same conclusions as you. For ability spread, I went 10/13; 22/8; 10/17, so at 11, I get an extra fort and will. Then, at 12, I plan to point in Dex and Con, to start working on individual superior defenses (my DM is pretty tough).
I have a bit more starting gold than you, picking up Gloves of Piercing (lvl 3), which I like. Helm of Seven Deaths (lvl 5) seemed like a fun story-telling device and provide some self-heal. Also, I chose Battle Harness at 9, instead of Blending Armor, to help that First Strike initiative.
I didn't want to go frost, like you appear to be doing, but I think it's an outstanding option. The weapon I chose was just out of magic item range for you, Challenge-Seeking Dagger +3 (lvl 11). Essentially +2d6 bonus damage vs. an enemy w/ max hit points. I love smashing up their back ranks with it.
At Daily 5, I sub-opted a bit for Sure Footed Retort, giving me 4 varied options to keep the Cloak of Displacement bonus going (assuming I drop the attacking enemy).
Last, I'll say that I think you're underestimating Harlequin Style. After Shadow Assassin paragon, you're just walking right through the enemies, at the top of the round, using up their Immediate Interrupts for your party, and doing an automatic 6 damage. With the style, you're moving another square, with +4 to OA, all for one feat. Plus, your fighter is cranking out those OA's you were talking about.

Its been several months since I made my post, but thanks for the feedback JohnQ.  Its also been at least a couple of months since I used my Rogue (we cycle through a few different games), but I still appreciate the suggestions as I expect we'll be coming back to my Rogue game soon.

Since my original post, I've had my Shield of Eyes called into question by my DM because I'm doing Two-Weapon fighting with two blades.  Although the Shield of Eyes goes in the Arms slot & not the Off-Hand slot, it specifically says in the Compendium "Arms Slot: Any shield" which makes it a special enchantment on "Any shield"...which I do not carry.  So although the CB allows me to use it, it doesn't actually apply.

I'm familiar with the Challenge-Seeking weapons, I have a high-Initiative bursty/blasty controller that uses it...awesome for her.

And I'll definitely take a peek at your suggestions as well.  Been a long time since I've even looked at my Rogue in the CB, been playing Gamma World for the last several weeks.

Whens the last time this build was updated?

I have played a rogue not too different from the one presented in this thread. And I have a question regarding the level 13 encounter power.
- But first a few observations of my own:

1. The feat Opportunity Knocks (OK) has been an absolute must for my character. We are only 3 PCs total in our group, and as such flanking CA can be hard to come by (it would be the same in a group with few melee PCs), and OK has been my most important feat. I can warmly recommend it.
As others have noted, it also works well with Harlequin Style.

2. If you, for some reason, need more AC vs OAs (and I do since I went with no shield) I can also recommend to get more items from the Blade Dancers Regalia. For some reason I haven't seen anyone mention this in spite of the fact, that the build already uses the Rhythm blade from the set. Just one more item and you have +2 AC vs OAs. In my campaign my GM is quite restrictive when it comes to items, but I managed to get 4 items from this set. - However, in spite of its awesomeness, as you level up, it does become less and less interesting when compared to the alternatives. Still it is worth a look.

3. The level 1 Daily: Duelist's Prowess, can be surprisingly powerful. It only allows 1 interrupt per turn, but since you now also get Sneak Attack once per enemy turn this can really dish out some damage in prolonged combat, and if nothing else will certainly make an enemy think twice about attacking you.
You will need Opportunity knocks to make it work like it does for me, but since I usually use OK to get my OAs I will usually have CA against the enemy that I will punish with Duelist's Prowess anyway.
The same goes for the level 7 encounter power: Lashing Blade. If you have a group of mobs standing close, you run in (and maybe back out and back in to make sure everyone has taken an OA against you so you have CA against them all), use Lashing Blade, and everyone adjacent takes a hit in their turn. Quite powerful.

4. On this character I have taken mainhand rapier and offhand dagger. If I were to make this character again, I would take mainhand dagger and the shield as proposed in the original build by OP. The extra AC+reflex is worth it, but you also need a dagger (IMO) for the occasional ranged attack, and that extra +1 to hit isn't a bad thing either (just go for powers with less damage and more riders).

And now to my question: As the level 13 encounter power everyone seems to take Stunning Strike, and I do see why. However, I would like to hear if others are considering something else. Personally I have looked at Tornado Strike.
TS has more damage (interesting since I have rapier), it attacks 2 opponents and it slides both quite far - and adds some extra movement.
I can see that TS is more situational than SS, that always has a use. Still TS seems very appealing to me.
So can anyone perhaps give me a few of their insights on why SS is still the winner? I mean a stun is nice (especially against solos and elites), but is it really a hands down winner when looking at TS?

I used to use Duelist's Prowess but didn't like that it was a daily and only good for one encounter. I don't like situational powers or magic items. I prefer gear that has properties that are always on and powers that can be applied to most situations. Stunning Strike, in my opinion, is your better choice. Stunning your enemy and preventing it from doing anything till the end of your next turn is better for the group than doing some damage to two monsters and moving them around a little. For example, our group encountered some monsters and one of them was a lich. My first move? Stunning Strike to prevent the lich from attacking. This gave the group the opportunity to pound on it till the end of my next turn. The lich was bloodied before it even got its first attack off. This also allowed me to utilize my daily, Final Blow. It all really comes down to the group's play style, how the DM is running the game, and how you like to play your rogue. What works for me, may not work for you.

Sorry to bring it up so late

congratulations Philip for this magnificent build

a question of mine:
whats the difference in dps in the frostcheese version of daggermaster vs shadow assasin?
the daggermaster version has lower ac? if so why?

thanks

never apologise for reviving an amazing build
still using it myself, though i am starting to wish i had picked daggermaster simply for the 18+ crit...

but to your questions, they have the same defenses at level 30 so i would assume they more or less have the same defense all the way there  except maybe if a feat is pushed a slot for another...

as for dps, i'd say it's next to impossible to compare as you have an improved crit chance on dagger master, but if your DM decides to focus you and you get lucky you can passivly deal out more damage with shadow assasin ripost in a round than dagger master might on a crit (i had 4 githyanki action point me and 2xdouble attack me and miss on everything giving them 4x7 each meaning i dealt 28x4=112 damage outside of my own turn)
so i pretty much depends how much you get focused in your party how effective shadow assasin is as even opportunity attacks can be elected not to be taken meaning it's next to impossible to force attack on you...

on another note, i've elected to make my shadow assasin a vampyre through the feat meaning he can use holy symbols and ki focuses which can be held in the shield hand giving you both benifits as long as it doesn't require you to actually attack with the item to gain the bonus, i currently have 3x holy symbol of victory meaning you have action points for the first 7 encounters if someone on your team have regular crits... reason i got several is that we've ruled you can only use the same magic item once pr. encounter, but if it is copies of the same item you are allowed multiple copies if they are just used in different encounters.
does anyone have any input on this??

Are you sure that the difference is only in the critical hits? If so its not that of a big deal.

ofcause there is the paragon path specific powers as well...
i belive the  dagger master have a little higher dps on those... but that is from memory so better check it yourself, but equipment is as far as i can tell the same apart from frostcheese requiring frost weapon...
though i'd deffinantly reccomend the frost way regardless... it's just the greatest and easiest way to ensure sneak attacks every turn 

Ok i agree with frostcheese

But my main concern is the DPR of this build. i would like to see average dpr like in other builds. Also both daggermaster and shadow asassin tend to have the same AC, but there is a significant difference in the posted builds. Cant a daggermaster use a shield like the shadow assasin? is two weapon fighting necessary in him?

there is also the initiative concern. does this build optimizes initiative? it would have been very nice considering that other power builds do the same.

Two Weapon Fighting is a thing for Daggermaster because Two Weapon Opening off of an expanded crit range is a huge deal. Shields are less of a big deal now because this build pre-dates the more egregious powercreep items like Elven Chain Shirt, Shielding Blade dagger, and Rhythm Blade dagger.

It was basically solved in another rogue thread a while ago that a well-optimized daggermaster rogue outputs about 46 DPR at level 12 without using frost. Frostcheese brings that up to about 55 DPR. At that level, daggermaster/crit optimization is worth about 6 DPR, and being a Brutal Scoundrel is another 5 or so. Since this build is neither, you can just back that out of your expected output.

At level 24, I think most rogues will fall within the 70-85 DPR range. I'd peg this particular one around 70.


Initiative optimization: Take whatever armor and neck slot this build uses, and replace with Timeless Locket, Battle Harness. Use Eye of Awareness at Epic, and generally take the initiative feats only if you're not strapped for feat space (protip: you are never not strapped for feat space on a rogue).

Mar 1, 2013 -- 4:22PM, RenZhe wrote:

Two Weapon Fighting is a thing for Daggermaster because Two Weapon Opening off of an expanded crit range is a huge deal. Shields are less of a big deal now because this build pre-dates the more egregious powercreep items like Elven Chain Shirt, Shielding Blade dagger, and Rhythm Blade dagger.

It was basically solved in another rogue thread a while ago that a well-optimized daggermaster rogue outputs about 46 DPR at level 12 without using frost. Frostcheese brings that up to about 55 DPR. At that level, daggermaster/crit optimization is worth about 6 DPR, and being a Brutal Scoundrel is another 5 or so. Since this build is neither, you can just back that out of your expected output.

At level 24, I think most rogues will fall within the 70-85 DPR range. I'd peg this particular one around 70.


Initiative optimization: Take whatever armor and neck slot this build uses, and replace with Timeless Locket, Battle Harness. Use Eye of Awareness at Epic, and generally take the initiative feats only if you're not strapped for feat space (protip: you are never not strapped for feat space on a rogue).

thanks RenZhe!
unfortunately this build is very feat demanding so the initiative feats are hard to come by..
which route do you suggest? shadow asassin or daggermaster for this build?

Depends on what you're into, really. Daggermaster has the undisputable DPR advantage, but only if you like fiddling around with crits, and with your damage coming in at inconsitent (but hilariously large) spikes. Shadow Assassin does exactly what the OP's build set out to do, which is annoy the crap out of your DM by making you hard to hit, and you get to run around with impunity.

Personally, I play a lot of HARD MODE where monsters hit harder and more often than they should, so I get less use out of Shadow Assassin than a normal person, but it should purely be an choice and issue of style for you.

and in terms of AC there is no difference?

Mar 1, 2013 -- 4:22PM, RenZhe wrote:

It was basically solved in another rogue thread a while ago that a well-optimized daggermaster rogue outputs about 46 DPR at level 12 without using frost. Frostcheese brings that up to about 55 DPR. At that level, daggermaster/crit optimization is worth about 6 DPR, and being a Brutal Scoundrel is another 5 or so. Since this build is neither, you can just back that out of your expected output.

Could you provide a link to that thread?

Here

And no, AC won't deviate either way. You can get to exactly the amount of AC the original build gets to nowadays by offhanding a Shielding Blade Dagger and wearing Elven Chain Shirt.

Mar 2, 2013 -- 2:24PM, RenZhe wrote:

Here

And no, AC won't deviate either way. You can get to exactly the amount of AC the original build gets to nowadays by offhanding a Shielding Blade Dagger and wearing Elven Chain Shirt.

thank you very much RenZhe

can you please look at the build and suggest which feats to replace with those of improved initiative? thanky

Hey everyone,

The answer may be obvious but I've done google searches and read through this thread several times without finding the answer.

Is there a reason I can't find the following feats in the D&D character builder?

Level 1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 2: Blade and Buckler Duelist

I'm building the character out by pen and paper in the meantime, but I found that very strange.

Thanks for the help! 

Mar 10, 2013 -- 1:01PM, Abdiel324 wrote:

Hey everyone,

The answer may be obvious but I've done google searches and read through this thread several times without finding the answer.

Is there a reason I can't find the following feats in the D&D character builder?

Level 1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 2: Blade and Buckler Duelist

I'm building the character out by pen and paper in the meantime, but I found that very strange.

Thanks for the help! 

Try other combindations.  Shield Proficiency: Light or something similar.  It does exist, my rogue has it.  Also, Blade and Buckler Duelist has a prereq of having the light shield.  So when you find the one, the other will start showing up as well.

Not sure if you are following this build exactly, but if you aren't then make sure you actually have 13 Str at the level you are trying to take it. 

I don't understand why the non-frostcheese 11th level snapshot build utilizes a master's blade weapon. Is it building towards something later, in which case wouldn't another item be more useful at this stage (I haven't studied the build beyond hitting paragon)? I see no advantage to a character without stance powers.

Mar 10, 2013 -- 1:01PM, Abdiel324 wrote:

Hey everyone,

The answer may be obvious but I've done google searches and read through this thread several times without finding the answer.

Is there a reason I can't find the following feats in the D&D character builder?

Level 1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
Level 2: Blade and Buckler Duelist

I'm building the character out by pen and paper in the meantime, but I found that very strange.

Thanks for the help! 

I know that I'm a week late here, but:

Shield Proficiency: Light is the title.  Note that it requires STR 13, and won't appear in the CB unless you have that.
Blade and Buckler Duelist has shield proficiency as a prerequisite, so it won't appear until you've take shield proficiency. 

Not sure if it got lost because of the intermediary post, but I still don't understand the choice of Master's Blade weapon. Anyone?

honestly i think it's because noone knows

Mar 21, 2013 -- 10:24AM, darkwarlock wrote:

Not sure if it got lost because of the intermediary post, but I still don't understand the choice of Master's Blade weapon. Anyone?

The only reason to take master's blade would be to get the +1 to attacks with mbas and at wills while in a stance.  I have not looked to see what stances he took but +1 to attack rolls matters.

true, but there is not a single stance in the build that i can see...

Mar 21, 2013 -- 1:23PM, nmNighteyes wrote:

true, but there is not a single stance in the build that i can see...

Kiss of Death is a stance. Duelist's Prowess is a stance as well, although that is retrained. I still think you could probably come up with a better weapon choice than that, considering both stances are Daily powers. It's possible its a relic from an earlier version of the build, as there are a couple others in there like replacing Snap Shot at 17 even though he never takes Snap Shot. 

Isn't this build 3 years old without being updated? Maybe that's the reason for some issues.

Mar 21, 2013 -- 2:52PM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

Isn't this build 3 years old without being updated? Maybe that's the reason for some issues.

It was updated a couple times after it was first posted, although still probably around 2 years since it was updated. I think part of the problem is that he made some partial updates, but never went back over the whole build from the ground up.

That sounds like a challenge to a worthy undertaking! Who's up to it?

Wouldn't require all that much work really. The frost build could use a bit of updating for some more recent options, but it's pretty solid as is. There are definitely some changes I'd make if I were going to play it myself, but that is personal preference more than any real deficiency with the build. 

My solution, sadly, is to work on my Rogue defender instead (which is still in playtest phase right now).  I should be finishing a fairly broad strokes paragon playtest here within the next 2 months.

Short of reworking the entire build, then, what would people substitute for the master's blade weapon for an 11th level rogue of this build? I've been deliberately avoiding the frostcheese route as our fighter has already gone down that path, but is frost the clear answer to synergize with him? Is there another weapon that suits this build's strengths more directly?

Mar 22, 2013 -- 4:09AM, darkwarlock wrote:

Short of reworking the entire build, then, what would people substitute for the master's blade weapon for an 11th level rogue of this build? I've been deliberately avoiding the frostcheese route as our fighter has already gone down that path, but is frost the clear answer to synergize with him? Is there another weapon that suits this build's strengths more directly?

Goblin Totem is easy enough.

Mar 22, 2013 -- 5:32AM, Matyr wrote:

Mar 22, 2013 -- 4:09AM, darkwarlock wrote:

Short of reworking the entire build, then, what would people substitute for the master's blade weapon for an 11th level rogue of this build? I've been deliberately avoiding the frostcheese route as our fighter has already gone down that path, but is frost the clear answer to synergize with him? Is there another weapon that suits this build's strengths more directly?

Goblin Totem is easy enough.

You'd want to swap out the IAoP then.

As the DM of someone that has copied this rogue completely, how the hell do I deal with it without throwing my non-optimised party members under the bus? 

It was bad enough with my Dragon Sorcerer having defender level AC at level 10 and dealing retarded amounts of damage in the meantime. That character is currently being chained up in a magic-proof cell and the player's rerolling until his paladin can save his old pc.

He's at level 12 and I have him, a Warlock, a Paladin (that's also highly optimized), and a wizard. With the Paladin's retarded high AC defenses, enemies didn't really want to target him or this little rogue. The elite they faced nearly dropped the Wizard in one turn and then nearly ate the warlock whole. While still smacking at the rogue and paladin when the creature actually would. Sorry, but after his pincers bouncing off the plate mail and getting dodged with ease by the halfling, he's going to look for easier targets - the quishy wizard and warlock. I have a knack for being a brutal DM (for varies reasons.. borken bones, diseases..), but (due to this being my first DM'd campaign and not wanting to limit my players from having their own fun with their characters) I don't know how to.. properly combat them? I don't want an encounter being too easy, but I also don't want an encounter to drop my wizard from 77 to 1 hit point in one round because he's not optimized like everyone else is. I keep encounters within experience budget but.. I dunno. 

you need to have a talk with the party- basically, they should be closer toghether in terms of op level, so either the wizard and warlock would need help optimizing, or the rogue and paladin should be weakened dramatically, or a little of both.

i would recommend heading over to the "what's a DM to do?" forum, for better advice- but overall, remember that it's a cooperative game where everyone's goal is to have fun, you're allowed to be honest with them and tell them what the issue is in an amiable way so your group can arrive at a resolution that is right for them.

You should rather tell the rogue player that playing unhittable characters that don't have punishment for ignoring them baked in (i mean, seriously, picking this PP is a joke, how much more punishment do you want to stack for being attacked. The PP's punishment isn't even good without vulnerability stacking) is being an ineffective dick. This build is really overrated, i'd just ignore him, since his damage is good, but ignorable (even more, since you don't have Babau Gauntlets and an enabling leader in party), and crush the squishies instead, like you did. If the rogue player then doesn't realize that this build is not a good idea and one of the main reasons for his party losing encounters, he's pretty narrow-minded.
I don't want to blame the author of this build, since it's a very old build and i don't know what rule sources he had to build it back then and what of this build got errataed in the process and i appreciate everyone's work that's put in such extensive builds.
I rather want to blame your player that he really thinks this is (still) a good idea, now in 2013.

Swarms with a damage aura, or things like chillborn zombies, or controler type mobs with stuns that target the weak NADs, or better yet, a Dominate so that the rogue can stab the wizard instead of you doing it.  TBH the ways to break an OPed character are usually staggering.

I play something similar to this character, and have done so for about 3 years now (we advance very slowly, and he is level 14 now). Essentials are not allowed in our campaign so that limits the options a bit.
But to answer the frustrated GM above I can assure you there are plenty of ways to hamper a rogue with this build - Aranador sums them up quite well.
I play in a reasonably well optimized party and the GM can tackle us all.

Apr 28, 2013 -- 3:35AM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

1. The PP's punishment isn't even good without vulnerability stacking)
...
2. This build is really overrated
....
3. I rather want to blame your player that he really thinks this is (still) a good idea, now in 2013.

And now to my own questions.

1. Yes, our party barbarian can put some vulnerability on the mobs that are reallynice with this feature.
But I can't seem to find any ways for myself to apply vulnerabilty - feats or some such. Did you have something specific in mind when you wrote the part on vulnerability? It would help out quite a bit.

2. Well, it certainly isn't all that overpowered. But it is a good build if you like to play an Artful Dodger rogue.

3. What would you consider a better build for an artful dodger rogue?

May 7, 2013 -- 10:50PM, Mordenkrad wrote:

I play something similar to this character, and have done so for about 3 years now (we advance very slowly, and he is level 14 now). Essentials are not allowed in our campaign so that limits the options a bit.
But to answer the frustrated GM above I can assure you there are plenty of ways to hamper a rogue with this build - Aranador sums them up quite well.
I play in a reasonably well optimized party and the GM can tackle us all.

Apr 28, 2013 -- 3:35AM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

1. The PP's punishment isn't even good without vulnerability stacking)
...
2. This build is really overrated
....
3. I rather want to blame your player that he really thinks this is (still) a good idea, now in 2013.

And now to my own questions.

1. Yes, our party barbarian can put some vulnerability on the mobs that are reallynice with this feature.
But I can't seem to find any ways for myself to apply vulnerabilty - feats or some such. Did you have something specific in mind when you wrote the part on vulnerability? It would help out quite a bit.

2. Well, it certainly isn't all that overpowered. But it is a good build if you like to play an Artful Dodger rogue.

3. What would you consider a better build for an artful dodger rogue?

1. This build lacks punishment for ignoring, so, with a decent DM your PP's f11 will simply never trigger and you shouldn't try to optimize around it. Vulnerability op is too vast of a topic to write it all down here.

3. I don't like non-Brutal Scoundrels at all and wouldn't play an artful dodger in the first place. Your question should be answered by somebody who's more into the rogue class.

I see what you mean about lacking punishment for ignoring. But that very much depends on the GM.
My GM is nice enough to say that no opponent knows of this effect before they have seen it in combat. So I always get a few shots off.
And then he also says that low-to-no-Intelligence monsters don't get it anyway, and most likely will continue making OAs even after they burned their fingers (especially if they are berserker-like).
So all in all I get very good milage on it.

May 8, 2013 -- 1:00PM, Mordenkrad wrote:

I see what you mean about lacking punishment for ignoring. But that very much depends on the GM.
My GM is nice enough to say that no opponent knows of this effect before they have seen it in combat. So I always get a few shots off.
And then he also says that low-to-no-Intelligence monsters don't get it anyway, and most likely will continue making OAs even after they burned their fingers (especially if they are berserker-like).
So all in all I get very good milage on it.

May 8, 2013 -- 11:20AM, pinkisthenewred wrote:

with a decent DM your PP's f11 will simply never trigger 

This build 

a) deals way less damage than any proper built Brutal Scoundrel (both, on- and off-turn)
b) doesn't take his portion of damage and is therefore even worse for the group than a permahidden build, cause the latter can get some OAs, at least.
c) is even worse than i thought at first glance.


Edit: Its only advantage is that it wont ever provoke OAs. So if you manage to optimize around being attacked/missed AND manage to create some sort of punishment for letting you move around, that would be some weird kind of catch-22. Don't think that there's a way to achieve this, without making it even more horrible, tho.