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4 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2009 - 11:58PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2008
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dazed says you can take "a" standard, minor or move action which means you can take only one of those. an action point grants an extra action however all actions fall under the category of being either a standard, free, minor, move, opportunity or immediate. so a guy who spends an action point while dazed is theoretically left with this suite of actions: stamdard, minor, move, free, extra action(in this case the extra action will be a standard). now he can only take one standard action because of being dazed regardless so the action granted by the action point would not be usable
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 12:05AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2007
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Why can't WotC rule on this one way or another so that it will stop all of these threads from occuring? The closest they have come is 'Yes you can spend and action point while dazed.' Personnaly, I rule that you CAN take the extra action while dazed, due to the aspect that it is a once/encounter ability, you only gain 1 AP/2 encounters, ext rest, and the concept of the action point is to pull off a 'super ability' Ramius
I strive for the freedom from expectations so many enjoy here; I fear I have a long journey to that level of spiritual creaminess.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 12:46AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2008
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but the fact that all you get is another action added your action pool doesn't change and because of the dazed condition the use to which you can put that move pool to is extremely limited. lol burning an action point to take a free action is the only thing you would be able to do while dazed since you are limited to only one stndard, minor, or move action.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 3:18AM
#34
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The action granted by using an action point is an "extra action" and can be taken while dazed. Just as being restricted to 3 actions normally doesn't prevent you from using an extra action, being restricted to 1 action also doesn't prevent you from using an extra action.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 3:48AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2008
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Looking at the exact wording, I think I'm changing my mind. The rules do seem to distinguish between actions that you get or gain (i.e. are entitled to) and actions that you take (i.e. actually use). So the turn flow goes: How many actions does the character get? (And the action point adds the action here.) When does the character take their actions? (And daze kicks in here.) That means that contrary to what I was thinking, using an action point while dazed wouldn't allow you to take more than one action. (Although you could still spend an action point to benefit from any warlord/PP/etc granted effects if you chose.) However, the rules are not quite consistent in their terminology: in the box text the rules say that if you spend an action point you gain a free action. However, in the follow-up text the rules say that if you don't take a free action you can instead get some other benefit you might be entitled to. So it's not quite clear cut.
Hoard: may earn you gp; Horde: may earn you xp.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 4:26AM
#36
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Yeah, well, being as this sort of parsing of phraseology is pretty much all I do for a living I'll weigh in as about as close to an expert on the unequivocal meanings of English as you're going to find outside of a court room... I think Suo et al. are correct. The precise meaning of the RAW is "when you are dazed you can only use one action" and an AP doesn't change that. The argument that "or" can mean "and" is totally specious. It easily falls to reductio ad absurdum and any such position is untenable because were it so then english would lack any ability to express a choice of alternatives. The contra argument relies on changing the conditions of the choice, not any ambiguity in the meanings of the words "and" and "or". If "or" can mean the same thing as "and" then logic simply cannot be expressed in english at all and the entire PHB is nothing but mumbo jumbo. So what we are left with is that the rule for the dazed condition clearly states you can take one action. It says nothing about what actions you have. The AP rule talks about giving you extra actions. The normal action rules say nothing about how many actions you can take, it only says you have a specified number of actions. By the sense of the rules normally if you have an action then you can take that action. The dazed condition rule imposes a limitation on which actions you can take and spending an AP does not modify that. Ergo you may only take one (non-free) action while dazed and expending an AP won't change that situation. Of course it is fair to note that the dazed condition rule could have been specific and stated this outright. The fact that it didn't do that is a reasonable indication that RAI may be that an AP should let you take whatever action the AP gives you. The fact remains though that Suo and Thorn have quite correctly parsed the literal meaning of the rules text and their argument is cogent. I think in analyzing how you will actual handle the situation at the table its worth considering both what's more interesting as options for the players and also what the consequences are to the players since the same argument has to work in the case of monsters. So the question you'll want to answer is whether or not its better for dazed to be more or less of a strict limitation. I'd think as a player I'd probably be more in favor of being able to get an action for an AP while dazed given that monsters use APs a lot less often than PCs do, but as a DM I'm pretty neutral on the whole subject.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 6:52AM
#37
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extra action where extra means more than what is usual, expected, or necessary. When you are dazed it is usual and expected that you get one action. When you spend an action point, you get an extra action, so therefore yes you can take it.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 7:05AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2009
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extra action where extra means more than what is usual, expected, or necessary. When you are dazed it is usual and expected that you get one action. When you spend an action point, you get an extra action, so therefore yes you can take it.
Again... you do not "get" one action while dazed. You still have all of your actions available to you. You are restricted to using one action.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 7:12AM
#39
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[
Again... you do not "get" one action while dazed. You still have all of your actions available to you. You are restricted to using one action.
and an action point grants you an extra one.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2009 - 7:15AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2009
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[
Again... you do not "get" one action while dazed. You still have all of your actions available to you. You are restricted to using one action.
and an action point grants you an extra one.
Yes... an extra one to have. Dazed still restricts you to using just one action. The specific rules for spending an action point do not say you get to "take" an extra action on your turn. You only "gain" an extra action. On a normal turn, there is no action restriction--there is only action allotment. Adding to that allotment lets you spend extra actions. On a dazed turn there is action restriction. Adding to your allotment does not overcome that restriction.
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