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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 8:24PM
#161
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[
Free action has a precise meaning in the rules, and an action point doesn't give you a free action. Just as well really, because you couldn't attack with a free action. An extra action does not have a precise meaning in the rules. An action point doesn't give you anything called an 'extra action'. It gives you an extra 'X action', where X can be 'standard/move/minor'. Yes, this is logical nitpicking.
meaning more than you would otherwise have. You're logical nitpicking actually argues in favor of the permissive ruling
Have but still be unable to use since the dazed condition says "You may take either a standard action, a move action or a minor action." So, if you have two standard actions, and you take one, that's it. You cannot take another one. This is the same logic that goes along with the healing power one gets from taking the Cleric multiclass feat.
The feat says you get the power once per day. "But the power says Special: you can use this feat twice per encounter but once per round." So, how many times can you use this power? Once, because the feat says it's once per day, even though the power says (under normal circumstances) that it would be usable twice per encounter.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 9:37PM
#162
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Have but still be unable to use since the dazed condition says "You may take either a standard action, a move action or a minor action." So, if you have two standard actions, and you take one, that's it. You cannot take another one. This is the same logic that goes along with the healing power one gets from taking the Cleric multiclass feat.
The feat says you get the power once per day. "But the power says Special: you can use this feat twice per encounter but once per round." So, how many times can you use this power? Once, because the feat says it's once per day, even though the power says (under normal circumstances) that it would be usable twice per encounter.
When you use an action point to gain an extra action, you get to use that action. Nowhere does it say otherwise. If the daze condition was meant to restrict action point use it would have said so. You are hung up on the word either, which restricts what is normally available to you in the dazed condition. Action points override that. It's what they do.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:08PM
#163
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Well, gee. So, you want me to ignore words in the conditions now? They didn't just throw that word in there for flavor text. The word 'either' is in the condition text. As long as it is there, it is part of the condition. Having that word in there is the difference between the condition saying "You can take one of these actions (and free actions)" and "You can take *only* one of these actions (and free actions)." These are two completely different statements. Let's flesh it out. "You can take either a standard action, a move action or a minor action on your turn (you may also gain an extra action by spending an action point.)" So ... I take a standard action and gain an extra action. Gaining is not the same as taking, so I'm still limited to the original three actions to take. There are plenty of feats and powers which key off of spending an action point. Even at level 1, you could be in a party with a Warlord who gives you some healing and a saving throw when you spend an action point, whether you take the action given by that action point or not. And, if you spend an action point, make a save against a condition dazing you and you succeed, then you get to take the rest of your actions for that turn (including the one you got for spending an action point.)
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:20PM
#164
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Well, gee. So, you want me to ignore words in the conditions now? They didn't just throw that word in there for flavor text.
The word 'either' is in the condition text. As long as it is there, it is part of the condition. Having that word in there is the difference between the condition saying "You can take one of these actions (and free actions)" and "You can take *only* one of these actions (and free actions)." These are two completely different statements.
Let's flesh it out.
"You can take either a standard action, a move action or a minor action on your turn (you may also gain an extra action by spending an action point.)"
So ... I take a standard action and gain an extra action. Gaining is not the same as taking, so I'm still limited to the original three actions to take.
There are plenty of feats and powers which key off of spending an action point. Even at level 1, you could be in a party with a Warlord who gives you some healing and a saving throw when you spend an action point, whether you take the action given by that action point or not. And, if you spend an action point, make a save against a condition dazing you and you succeed, then you get to take the rest of your actions for that turn (including the one you got for spending an action point.)
You're absolutely right, gaining is not the same as taking. But as soon as you gain that action you can take it. I'm not saying you should ignore words in the condition, but you are ignoring words in the action point description, mainly the word extra. You know extra, as in addition to?
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:44PM
#165
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Actually, no. That's where you are wrong. Refer to my previous post about "Actions on your Turn" and "Dazed". "Actions on your Turn" specifically says that you can spend an action point to take an extra action. The dazed condition is limiting the actions you can take on your turn and therefore overrides that part of the "Actions on your turn" rules. Yes, you can spend free actions on your turn while dazed. There are plenty of utility powers, item powers, attacks, etc. which are free and no actions. Spending an action point is also a free action, but using that extra action is *not* a free action.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2009 - 1:05AM
#166
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Date Joined:
Feb 17, 2004
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I'm new to 4th Ed. and have only GM'd a few sessions. I have only read through page 6 on this thread as well. That said, it seems we are at the same old argument, Intent v. RAW. It's always been the GM's conundrum. What to do... what to do? Good arguments on both sides, no doubt. It seems to me that action points should be a case of the specific rule trumping the general rule. It seems that action points should be special. Now *why* are we still questioning Intent v. RAW? One would hope that WotC could produce a system devoid of ambiguities, they can not. For that matter no system can be formed without ambiguities. I would allow a player to use an action point to gain a 'second action' while Dazed. I feel it's within the 'spirit of the rules'. I apologize if what I have said has been addressed or 'fixed'. I will read the remainder of the thread, but sometimes ya just gotta say sumthin'. Edit: D'oh! How does it break the game to allow for the 'second' or extra action while Dazed? Does it change anything all that much? I honestly don't know? Sorry for the edit but I simply forgot to put the question in the original text.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2009 - 1:54AM
#167
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2008
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meaning more than you would otherwise have. You're logical nitpicking actually argues in favor of the permissive ruling
It argues in favour of the permissive ruling as RAI. As I said, the permissive ruling is what I'd house rule. But I stand by my opinion that the restrictive ruling is RAW.
Hoard: may earn you gp; Horde: may earn you xp.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2009 - 2:19AM
#168
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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Just thought I'd chime in a little, when limiting actions allowed in a turn you should perhaps look to the suprise round rules, which is very similar to daze in that you get one action, either a standard, move or a minor and can take free actions, but it specifically states you cannot use action points.
Suprise round limits you as such, "Limited Action: If you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action (see “Action Types”). You can also take free actions, but you can’t spend action points." The wording for "Extra action" as part of the actions on your turn (phb pg 269) says explicitly "You can TAKE an extra action by spending an action point (page 286)" Note that it does not use the word gain here, it says take, and this is the rule of what happens on your turn, Daze does not alter that since it only alters the category of "your actions" under actions on your turn. Caps was my emphasis of course. When limiting your actions they are very specific when it limits more than just the standard allotment of 3 actions per turn. Stunned even shows that you can't "take" actions, which means you can't spend an action point, and even if you gain an action through other means you can't take it.
Blah blah blah
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4 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2009 - 5:00AM
#169
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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I'm in the camp of ...1 out of 3 + 1 = 1 out of 4. Eighter a X , a Y or a Z....means a restriction to me. whatever the possibilities given to you while Dazed, it won't change the fact the you can take eighter a Standard, a Move or a Minor as well as many Free actions as you can possibly take, this despite what you can gain over the course of this same Dazed turn, including extra actions. I believe you can spend an AP to gain an extra action. I don't believe you can use any extra action while Dazed. But you would get all the benefits of doing so. An extra action only let you take one more action, this through the uses of an AP or some other sources, so it increases the possibilities you have and the action you can possibly take normally. But if any condition restricts you from taking any more than eighter a Standard, a move or a Minor action, unfortunatly, you will be limited to use eighter a Standard, a move or a Minor action only, regardless of want you can possibly take. You could be well taking the Standard granted by the AP if you'd want, but that would count tioward the max you can take during your Dazed turn. The card was a good exemple.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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4 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2009 - 2:47PM
#170
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If you really think you can spend an action point to gain an extra action and not be able to use it, that's fine for you. But until I see an actual rule that prevents it, I will not view it that way. Action points grant you an extra action, and when you are granted an extra action you can use it. I have seen nothing that says otherwise.
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