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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 8:43AM
#141
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Here is another way to look at it. On pg 267 PHB under the surprise round: Limited Action: If you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action (see "Action Types"). You can also take free actions, but you can't spend action points. Here it specifically states you cannot use action points. Nowhere in the dazed condition does it state you can't use them.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 9:10AM
#142
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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I also speculate that the original writers would allow the extra actions while dazed. Do you believe they wouldn't?
I believe some would and some would not--otherwise the PH FAQ entry would have clarified that you can use the action you gained from spending an action point, instead of just saying you can spend an action point.
Ah. (For some reason the PHB FAQ has been unaccesable via my primary browsers, but thank you for noting this... I completely forgot about it)
WotC's FAQ says:
"Can I spend an action point while I'm dazed?
Yes. Spending an action point is a free action, and you can take free actions while you're dazed." The answer should suffice for most players. I'll mention it in the board FAQ. Thanks again.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 9:15AM
#143
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That answer on the FAQ doesn't answer whether or not you can use the extra action from spending the action point, though. Since there are things that can happen on spending an action point (apart from gaining an extra action) it makes sense that you would be able to gain those effects without being able to take the extra action. So, that still doesn't convince me. Sorry.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 9:16AM
#144
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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That answer on the FAQ doesn't answer whether or not you can use the extra action from spending the action point, though.
The intent of the statement should be clear enough for most.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 9:28AM
#145
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Date Joined:
Dec 17, 2001
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The intent of the statement should be clear enough for most.
True, but many of us thought the intent was clear from the first printing of the PHB. Here's to hoping! (cheers)
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:24AM
#146
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That answer on the FAQ doesn't answer whether or not you can use the extra action from spending the action point, though. Since there are things that can happen on spending an action point (apart from gaining an extra action) it makes sense that you would be able to gain those effects without being able to take the extra action.
So, that still doesn't convince me. Sorry.
You really think they want the system to work that way? That you can do something but NOT get the benefit from being able to do it? That is the basic logic you are presenting. That the rules allow you to do something, but that you can not benefit from the results of doing it. I seriously don't think that is the intended design.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:32AM
#147
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2009
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I have to ask - how is this argument still going on? Dazed says NOTHING about only 1 action. Read carefully what is written, and compare it to what is normal. "You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can also take free actions)" There are two distinct parts - one describing your turn, and an ADDITIONAL allowance for free actions. Further, under ACTION POINTS, it defines the limitations of usng them
a) they must be taken on your turn
b) never during a surprise round. and you gain an EXTRA action. Is the definition of extra what is being questioned?
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?"
I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 11:49AM
#148
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"On your turn, you take actions: a standard action, a move action, a minor action, and any number of free actions, in any order you wish." (PHB 266)
This is not a limiting sentence and I have already rebutted this in post 96 (without a response).
I immediately responded to that in post 100 with as much textual support as you used, but we can go more in depth.
There is no limit placed on a normal turn.
If "On your turn, you take actions: a standard action, a move action, a minor action, and any number of free actions, in any order you wish." is taken as a restriction then 1) You cannot trade down action types, 2) you have to use all of your actions before your turn is considered over; also the specific rule for standard action says "You can normally take one standard action on your turn."
Your statement does nothing to "rebuff" the idea that the quote from PHB 266 limits what you can do on your turn.
1) Why couldn't you trade down action types? The rule doesn't address using a standard action to take a move action. The Actions on your Turn section describes how you can swap out actions, and this rule does not contradict that.
2) So, I'm guessing, you're suggesting that because the rule says "you take" and not "you can take", that it would imply that all the actions must be performed before your turn can end? The Actions on your Turn section states that any action can be skipped, and this rule does not contradict that.
In the statement from the Standard Actions section, the "normally" supports the limit while recognizing the existence of action points and other ways of skirting the limit, just as the Move Action and Minor Action sections use "normally" to recognize the existence of powers that let characters take move actions and minor action during other's turns. If the statement on PHB 266 doesn't limit the actions you can take, then it isn't a rule at all.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 11:52AM
#149
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I have to ask - how is this argument still going on? Dazed says NOTHING about only 1 action. Read carefully what is written, and compare it to what is normal. "You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can also take free actions)"
There are two distinct parts - one describing your turn, and an ADDITIONAL allowance for free actions.
Further, under ACTION POINTS, it defines the limitations of usng them
a) they must be taken on your turn
b) never during a surprise round.
and you gain an EXTRA action. Is the definition of extra what is being questioned?
We're still trying to determine what 'is' means.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2009 - 12:21PM
#150
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I'll just put this in here again: "You can spend either a standard action, a move action or a minor action (you may also spend free actions." By spending an action point as a free action, you get an EXTRA ACTION which can be a standard action, a move action or a minor action. Now, which part of the dazed condition allows you to spend a second standard action, move action or minor action? It doesn't. Why are you allowed to take that extra action normally by spending an action point? Because the rules under "Actions on your turn" says you can. When you are dazed, the dazed condition dictates what actions you are allowed to take on your turn. Does it say you can take an extra action during your dazed turn by spending an action point? No. "Actions on your turn." - PHB, pg 269
You get the following three actions on your turn:
Standard action
Move action
Minor action ✦ Free Actions: You can take any number of free actions on your turn. ✦ Any Order: You can take your actions in any order you wish, and you can skip any of them. ✦ Substitute Actions: You can take a move action or a minor action instead of a standard action, and you can take a minor action instead of a move action. ✦ Extra Action: You can take an extra action by spending an action point (page 286). ✦ Other Combatants' Actions: Other combatants can take free actions on your turn, and you might take actions that trigger immediate actions or opportunity actions from other combatants. Compare to the dazed condition: "Dazed" - PHB, pg 277: ✦ You grant combat advantage. ✦ You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can't take immediate actions or opportunity actions. ✦ You can't flank an enemy. Now, does it have a bullet that says you can get an extra action by spending an action point? No. It doesn't.
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