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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 6:57PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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Just curious, but do you follow the various "brainstorm a martial controller!" threads that pop up from time to time? While I understand that there's a lot of garbage to wade through, a few ideas, such as thhe Dreadnaught, seem pretty well developed.
The Dreadnaught is by far the best of the Martial Controllers I've seen. It has it's own niche while still filling the controller role. It and the Archivist are the only two classes from the forums I allow in my home games.
Le gasp. I really need to work my tamer out more. The changes to the boards kinda made me go "meh" because i had to spend so much time going back reformating while coming up with furthered ideas. I've got several ideas now, that make it more into a kick ass class. Once i finish with it, I hope you'll let it in your game. I do need to find some new powers though, as one of them (kip up) was released in the skill powers. (stand up from prone as a minor action)
I'd get along more with people if they didn't jump onto a hyberbole every single time you say something they don't understand.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 11:47PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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The seeker reads like a ranger. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I see this class as being more of an 'archer ranger variant'. And I'm surprised to see another ranged class. I wonder, does it play like a ranger? W/o any melee weapon powers, the seeker will have to hang back, circle the battle and strike from range. That would make it very much like the archer ranger. I like it -- it looks like a good class.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 12:52AM
#43
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The seeker reads like a ranger. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I see this class as being more of an 'archer ranger variant'. And I'm surprised to see another ranged class.
I wonder, does it play like a ranger? W/o any melee weapon powers, the seeker will have to hang back, circle the battle and strike from range. That would make it very much like the archer ranger.
I like it -- it looks like a good class.
In my experience, it does not play like a ranger. As a Seeker, you are always looking for grouped enemies- most of yor powers give a debuff to the target and any enemy adjacent to the target. You also arn't much worried about missing- even if you do miss, you can use a class power to turn it into the Patriot Arrow from the Mel Brooks Robin Hood, streakong off to the same or a different target. (1/enconter, but it recharges on an Action point) The close burst push can be used to break out of melee, but generally it's better to se your "I'm a kobold" shift ability instead- the psh is better sed FORCING enemies into groups, to be shot at. So while it has skirmish elements, they are completely different from the Ranger's Prime Shot mechanics, and play a LOT differently.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 11:44AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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A little surprised no one has mentioned this yet. I know we're not supposed to balance individual powers from different classes, but this is rather striking. Stinging Swarm - Seeker Attack 1
At-Will ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action - Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Wisdom modifier damage, and the target and each
enemy adjacent to it take a –2 penalty to attack rolls until
the start of your next turn.
Level 21: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier damage.
Special: You can use this power as a ranged basic attack. Compare that to Illusory Ambush (Wizard at-will): Illusory Ambush
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Illusion, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level. Stinging Swarm has better range, does more damage, affects more people, and doesn't have an elemental type that can be resisted. It can also be used as a basic attack, and as a seeker you get a couple of riders due to that. At least the accruracy is, arguably, roughly even. Sure, Illusory Ambush is versus Will, but Stinging Swarm allows you to use a superior crossbow (a +3 proficiency weapon). It's not hard to see that people will claim "power creep", and in this case I think that's pretty justifiable.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 11:48AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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Anyone else notice that the best weapon for a Seeker is not a bow? This is despite the text on page 6 that states they wanted the iconic longbow to feature more prominently. Controllers are most interested in accuracy. A Superior Crossbow gives you a +3 proficiency bonus. A Greatbow only gives you a +2. Strikers will also want to use a Superior Crossbow. Partly due to feats like Steady Shooter. But look at the Seeker powers. Even the high-level ones have low [W] damage. Instead, they tend to have additional dice damage (like an extra 1d6 or 1d8 damage). So if you want to do the most damage, you'll use a weapon that you'll hit more often with: the extra number of hits will far out-damage the slightly less damage you do per-hit (and that's without feats like Steady Shooter). Ironically, a superior crossbow doesn't seem very "primal".
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 12:01PM
#46
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Given that they consider Longbow to be the iconic weapon, I don't think they count superior weapons for flavor. With that understood, the longbow is a better weapon than the regular crossbow, correct?
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 1:51PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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Given that they consider Longbow to be the iconic weapon, I don't think they count superior weapons for flavor. With that understood, the longbow is a better weapon than the regular crossbow, correct?
They do consider the superior/greater versions. Quote: "The seeker expands utility for the longbow (and associated weapons)" I don't know of any Archer Ranger that uses an actual longbow and it would be foolish of me to believe that WotC doesn't know this either. If you're seeking to build an Archer Ranger today, you use a Superior Crossbow. As far as I know, the only hold-outs (and I'm considering being one of them for my elven ranger) are the people that dislike using a crossbow for flavor/lore reasons. It doesn't feel very "elven" to use a crossbow, for example. But if you look through class guides, there's an agreement that the crossbow is better. You're just shooting yourself in the foot (pun intended) if you choose not to, for the most part. Which brings us back to this topic. It's not a failing of the Seeker class that the crossbow is currently better than the bow due to feats and proficiency bonus. It's too bad, since a crossbow doesn't feel very "primal", but that's how it is. But it's a failing that the authors of this article don't acknowledge for some reason. They for some reason believe that this Seeker class helps to make the longbow (and its ilk) more prominent. That just won't happen, unfortunately. It's the superior crossbow, in a completely different weapon category than the bow, that they have just re-inforced as the new iconic 4E ranged weapon of choice. Better accuracy is even more important for a controller than it is for a striker (for the reasons mentioned before).
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 2:26PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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I don't know. First of all, I don't see the superior crossbow as a better weapon to the greatbow. It deals d10 damage instead of d12 damage. It also has less range. The range is situational. You need environments in which range is beneficial. But if you play in games in which encounters are designed in a manner that makes range an advantage, thats a major benefit for the greatbow. You can also load the bow with a free action instead of a minor action. That means that a ranger with a greatbow doesn't need to give up moving in order to both load his weapon, query a target, and fire, in the same round. If you are building a character with an 18 as their starting stat in their primary attack stat, and who plans to put all 8 points they possibly can into that stat as they level, personally, I would rather gain the benefits of a greatbow then a superior crossbow on a ranger. As for a seeker, I haven't looked at them super carefully. I don't know which weapon would be better for them as of yet. But, looking through them briefly, it seems like a lot of their controller benefits are effects. They happen whether you hit or not. Honestly, with that in mind, as long as you can build with a starting stat of 18 in your primary attack stat, and end up with a 26 in your primary attack stat (or higher), I think I would still rather use the greatbow. I'm not a huge fan of having to spend a minor action and loosing out on extra damage every time I fire my bow. I'm willing to give up 1 point of an attack bonus to avoid having to do that. I think the superior crossbow and the greatbow are better balanced against each other then you are giving them credit fore.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 3:45PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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I pretty much agree with Cyber-Dave and I'd also like to comment that taking a mathematically less optimal option doesn't make your character unviable, unplayable, nor does it mean you're shooting yourself in the foot (plus you save on two feats if you use the longbow or one feat if you use the greatbow, assuming you don't want to use a minor action to load your crossbow every round). Another way that WotC is likely going to reinforce the bow as the iconic seeker weapon is by tailor-making magic weapons to them and restricting them to that category. Also, you're comparison of illusory ambush and stinging swarm missed one key difference; the former power lasts until the end of your next turn while the latter lasts until the beginning of your next turn. Stinging swarm may be situationally a bit better than illusory ambush (the range advantage is easily nullified by most encounter designs, typed damage can be resisted but there are also vulnerabilities, the illusion keyword has effects we haven't considered), its hardly reason for a cry of "power creep!"
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4 years ago ::
Oct 08, 2009 - 4:07PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Oct 20, 2008
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I pretty much agree with Cyber-Dave and I'd also like to comment that taking a mathematically less optimal option doesn't make your character unviable, unplayable, nor does it mean you're shooting yourself in the foot (plus you save on two feats if you use the longbow or one feat if you use the greatbow, assuming you don't want to use a minor action to load your crossbow every round).
I agree, but it's sub-optimal. And the only reason to do so is essentially for flavor/lore reasons. As mentioned, I might actually use a bow for my elven archer ranger, but I do so knowing it's inferior. Check the class guides or talk to your own buddies if you don't believe me. @Cyber-Dave, the load time isn't significant since there's a crossbow feat to eliminate it. And the range of both the crossbow and greatbow are both so big that they tend to include the entire gaming table. For small-scale combats, which should be almost all your combats, the range difference doesn't matter. Also, you're comparison of illusory ambush and stinging swarm missed one key difference; the former power lasts until the end of your next turn while the latter lasts until the beginning of your next turn. Stinging swarm may be situationally a bit better than illusory ambush (the range advantage is easily nullified by most encounter designs, typed damage can be resisted but there are also vulnerabilities, the illusion keyword has effects we haven't considered), its hardly reason for a cry of "power creep!"
That's a really minor difference. Keep in mind this power imposes a -2 penalty on the target's attack rolls. The target's turn should always come before both the "start of your turn" and the "end of your turn". Therefore the only difference is due to OAs you might trigger on your own next turn. There's really no comparison between the two powers. Compare:
- Affects multiple targets with a -2 penalty to hit during their turn. It ends right before my next turn, so the penalty won't be active if I provoke on OA on my next turn.
- Affect only one target with a -2 penalty to hit during their turn. If I provoke an OA on my next turn it will still be active, but ends after that.
One is hands down better then the other for a controller.
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