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4 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2009 - 9:20PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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4 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2009 - 11:21PM
#22
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[stuff i said]
It's basically just the same thing that happened with 3.xE. As the developers get more used to the system, they're better able to make classes that work in it, and are more willing to take risks with whacky mechanics. Sometimes they fail, and sometimes they result in stuff that make the earlier classes look boring and weak in comparison.
But with the Power Source books and Dragon articles, they now have the ability to eventually go back and fix the earlier classes to get them up to par with the new stuff.
i really see something of that nature as new classes are coming out. one of the things that we're dealing with at my table is a recently converted player that wishes his wizard still had so many spells from his 3.5 spellbook to fill out his range of arcane awesome. [sleep is first level, okay. daily? wtf?] but, i guess that i've got to reread the class a bit after reading some more comments. i myself was hoping for a ranged weapon primal user. i didn't expect that the primal spirits would take such a notable form however. i was thinking of something more like a barbarian in that the primal spirit would come over the character and direct the accuracy or damage.
[snip]
[snip]
[stuff i said again]
I don't think the Rogue or the Ranger are going to suffer in popularity (okay maybe the rogue will, but that may wane after the "Ooooo... Shiney!" effect wears off on the Assassin). The ranged Ranger is just an awesome force of destruction. The Seeker though is lower in damage and accuracy, but makes up for it in control. They feel different enough, although I do fear the Elf Ranger|Seeker hybrid...
PHB1 Classes are very strong and fill their niches just fine. If anything, the new classes that have come since are just different takes on the archetypes that were established in the first PHB.
i think this will push rogue players in two directions, toward the trapsmith or toward the assassin. i'll be glad to see that sort of distinction. so in that sense, i'm glad to see the rogue appear more of a benign class that has versatile skills and fantastic weapon training, while the assassin really just kills things. i'll have to simply playtest the seeker a bit to see where it compares to the ranger. the limited options of the preview do give the appearrance of pushing the ranger into the camp of a skilled field archer rather than an uncommonly good hunter. maybe that means that it will get some love at those martial academies written about in the two fighter articles. the previous ranger article gave it some woodsy flavor. a more military flair in a future article could help to establish that position among the martial. but, i agree that it doesn't truly take the place of another class. after looking it over more i can see where the control elements are out of league for a ranger.
[stuff i said a third time]
I have to disagree with this. Is it "cooler?" Sure, in as much as I read the class concept and went "Cool!" Is it cooler than an Archer Ranger? I don't think so. I find a highly skilled "Legolas-type" archer just as cool as a "Kikyo-type" mystical miko style archer.
To be fair, had the "base" classes not been released first you may very well have seen them when released and said "Cool!" As it is, the "base" classes were released first. Later classes will deviate away from those in their own way and there will be a coolness factor to those deviations. Who wants a bunch of new classes to come out that are meh?
yes, to be fair i do get a "cool" feeling all over when i read thru the next splat book and play around with creating characters in the CB. so i guess that is simply bound to happen.
i think that a 'wish' for the future would be to have the classes all defined simultaneously and published simultaneously in one big group. then make future publications offer increasing options rather than offering some new classes at intervals.htat is a huge wish, but other gamers might be workign through campaigns much faster. maybe they are ready for the new materials at intervals and it doesn't cause such an interruption. to some other thoughts, if this is meant to be the mystic hunter, why is he pulling so many conditions and mass attacks? i'm a hunter. i focus on one animal and i expect that one single shot of ammunition will be the killing strike. i don't at all want to poison the meat. though, instantly freezing the meat has potential. [sorry, who wants realism to infect their game world? right?]
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4 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2009 - 11:30PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2004
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I actually kinda like this class. I think it's neat to finally see a weapon-based controller class, even if it is primal instead of martial. It's actually the first time a controller class has made me sit up and say, "Wow, I'd really like to give that a try in-game." I also really like the whole concept behind making certain encounter and daily powers count as a ranged basic attack to allow them to be used with inevitable shot and the crimson hunter's paragon path features. It's the first time I can think of off the top of my head where I've looked over power choices and actually seriously considered not taking the power I have the rider for.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 1:56AM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2008
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But with the Power Source books and Dragon articles, they now have the ability to eventually go back and fix the earlier classes to get them up to par with the new stuff.
Interesting take on the situation... with the exception of the barbarian (and on the other side of the fence, the warlock), I'd be more likely to say 'they have the ability to eventually go back and fix the later classes to get them up to par with the original stuff', lol.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 6:27AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2006
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I glanced over it on my CB, I like the idea and actually want to try one 
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 7:35AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2003
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but, i guess that i've got to reread the class a bit after reading some more comments. i myself was hoping for a ranged weapon primal user. i didn't expect that the primal spirits would take such a notable form however. i was thinking of something more like a barbarian in that the primal spirit would come over the character and direct the accuracy or damage.
It might be hard with only half the class, but once we get the full class, and certainly after it gets expanded in Primal Power 2 it should be possible to create such a seeker. I know from trying that it's already reasonably possible to create a warden that doesn't seem overtly mystical.
to some other thoughts, if this is meant to be the mystic hunter, why is he pulling so many conditions and mass attacks? i'm a hunter. i focus on one animal and i expect that one single shot of ammunition will be the killing strike. i don't at all want to poison the meat. though, instantly freezing the meat has potential. [sorry, who wants realism to infect their game world? right?]
Wrong kind of hunter. Seekers don't hunt wild game, at least not as a function of their class. They hunt defilers of nature.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 8:19AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Oct 16, 2007
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I realize that with the Bloodbound build we got in this preview, it has a lot of abilities to avoid melee attacks or opportunity attacks. Which is probably a good thing since it doesn't really have anything to defend itself if someone gets too close. But it seems that their area of effect never go beyond burst 2. They're more for controlling a pinpoint area. It's possible that the Spiritbound build might be better able to handle itself if someone gets too close, only because most thrown weapons can also be used as melee weapons. Though it's a moot point with magic thrown weapons, I wonder if they'll be able to have mundane thrown weapons magically return to them.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 9:34AM
#28
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It's possible that the Spiritbound build might be better able to handle itself if someone gets too close, only because most thrown weapons can also be used as melee weapons. Though it's a moot point with magic thrown weapons, I wonder if they'll be able to have mundane thrown weapons magically return to them.
Probably not. This was often discussed for the Artificer during playtest and how artificers were annoyed that they had to carry multiple thrown weapons at low levels (one for each target). This was when 4th edition first came out, so people were still pretty new to the rules, but it was clear you needed one thrown weapon for each target. I don't think they ever changed that, but the system's been out for long enough that most people don't even care and just tweak it for the one build it totally screws over. (That and most Weaponificers use some kind of bow) In short - they didn't change it for the Artificer, nor for the Prescient Bard, I doubt they are going to change it for the Seeker.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 10:11AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2008
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The seeker, like someone suggested, feels to me, like an archer ranger that has been tweaked to work as a controller rather than a striker. I love that. The powers do really feel like they fit into the primal power source, if you believe that primal isn't a subset of martial, which is something that I'm not completely decided on yet. Arguably, the barbarian and the warden don't necessarily feel greatly slanted toward the primal power source against the martial power source. The barbarian really feels like a fighter who trades the stickiness for higher damage output. To me, the warden feels like its a str/con warrior that lost the heavy armor for higher hp pools. That said, I love the classes. They play a little different, which is what is important. The seeker will play different than an archer ranger built for control in giving the player playing the seeker a whole lot more choices than the control archer ranger. But to say that the Martial Controller concept lacks traction within R&D makes me wonder why. If R&D's goal in making new classes is to do the same kinds of things in new ways, a martial controller really will open up whole new concepts on a particular playstyle. The discussion laid out for PHB 3 said that, moving forward, the barriers will be shaken up, or alltogether torn down. Maybe one of the new ideas that has to be looked into is whether the constraints R&D has placed upon either the martial power source, the controller role, or how a character's turn should behave can't be shaken up to appease niche players and open up new concepts to the game. One common flaw people have in their homebrew martial controllers is the idea that weapons shouldn't be expended, or that combat shouldn't require setup time (these issues are prevalent for the trapsmith, alchemist and grenadier style controllers). The problem with the first concept is that an archer ranger must expend ammunition to make an attack. The problem with the second is sometimes, a party could very concievably be prepared for combat in such a way that the preparations are the pivital factor. Its a serious design flaw to think that a party will never be able to prepare a combat area in such a way that the terrain, the placement of traps and the arrangement of combatants that favors themselves.
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4 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2009 - 10:57AM
#30
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2001
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But to say that the Martial Controller concept lacks traction within R&D makes me wonder why. If R&D's goal in making new classes is to do the same kinds of things in new ways, a martial controller really will open up whole new concepts on a particular playstyle.
I wouldn't say that the concept lacks traction within R&D. As I point out in the commentary, there are a number of us interested in the concept. And by concept I mean the idea that the game has room for a martial controller and even some ideas of what that controller would look like. Rather, none of the treatments that we've seen or brainstormed have gained traction enough to find their way in a book as of yet. We're more than a little choosey about what finds its way into published material. It takes a great deal of energy, deliberation, and brainpower to design, develop, and edit a class. Then there is the fact that it has to fit with whatever product mix we have on the schedule.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Pathfinder RPG Designer
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