Yo claim that there's onlly a few powers where both beast and player attack- just a glance through the compendim reveals a level 1 encounter, a level 1 daily, a level 3 encounter, a level 7 encounter, (level 9 daily is a close burst 2)... the level 15 daily allows you to combine attacks every round until the end of combat.
Yes, PLEASE - look how few and far between. and you've only covered the 1 true AoE.
Level 17 encounter, another close burst 2 at level 19... I'm seeing that this is more of the norm, rather than the exception, for this kind of power. And being able to move while attacking, or while the partner is attacking, es even more common, with at-wills like Hit and Run and circling strike.
The late paragon tier, again. And limited usage. It's NOT an easy feat for martial, it seems..
Imagine if Hit and Run was an Enconter power that attacked Close Burst 1. You could move into enemies, explode, and move out, all in a single turn, and still use yor minor to command your beast with a power like Scent of Fear.
I am, unfortunately, you, it seems, are not. You're taking a ranger (supposedly balanced - in-line with ALL other classes) and ramped him up TREMENDOUSLY. You've successfully created the single most unbalanced character in the game. As I said earlier - NOT something I'd want to see.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?" I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
A preliminary review would indicate that this exposes some of the shortfalls inherent in trying to force this combination. First, as an attempt to balance this out, he took the fighter, scaled back 1 level of armor proficiency, and adjusted the hp to match those of a warlock (with better surges). So, already, it is unbalanced (add in the fact that many of the power/level are along the lines of the warlock and psion - both with less armor and weapon capability). Next - to get back to the martial roots - and make the concept more complete he goes on to introduce the juggernaught - which necessarily requires a feat tax to restore himself to heavy armor. Don't get me wrong - as far as concept goes (fluff) this one actually hits the mark as to how a martial controller may enable his effects. (especially the gore hound). It does essentially meet the 3 tests as posted. As it is, however, it's unabalanced compared to the other classes.
Again - Control requires a certain amount of "squishiness". Martial requires either high damage or high defense. Since you can't have high damage + control without being overpowered, or high defense and be squishy, you end up falling flat.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?" I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
I play PbP anyway. A bunch of us are regular enough to get away with a playtest. straight delves, no plot - pure combat. take it from L1 and compare it. Fill in the party with the other types that are needed, and someone DMs to moderate.
(You have to understand, I WANT this to work - I just don't believe it's possible)
edited to add: when I say "that are needed" I mean needed for comparison. - probably beast druid, warlord, fighter, and warlock
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?" I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
A preliminary review would indicate that this exposes some of the shortfalls inherent in trying to force this combination. First, as an attempt to balance this out, he took the fighter, scaled back 1 level of armor proficiency, and adjusted the hp to match those of a warlock (with better surges). So, already, it is unbalanced (add in the fact that many of the power/level are along the lines of the warlock and psion - both with less armor and weapon capability). Next - to get back to the martial roots - and make the concept more complete he goes on to introduce the juggernaught - which necessarily requires a feat tax to restore himself to heavy armor. Don't get me wrong - as far as concept goes (fluff) this one actually hits the mark as to how a martial controller may enable his effects. (especially the gore hound). It does essentially meet the 3 tests as posted. As it is, however, it's unabalanced compared to the other classes.
Again - Control requires a certain amount of "squishiness". Martial requires either high damage or high defense. Since you can't have high damage + control without being overpowered, or high defense and be squishy, you end up falling flat.
Swear to God, I blush everytime someone links me. It's like getting a not-creepy hug from a passerby.
Here I'd like to argue a few points with you, having a long history of experience with the martial controller (debate and theory).
Specifics First:
Why do you think I started with a Fighter and scaled back Armor proficiencies? I started with the warlord, because I imagined an anti-warlord to be a martial controller. Warlod buffs allies, anti-warlord debuffs enemies. I gave it the second lowest HP but gave it better surges. This matches the "unbalanced" progression of the Avenger, not digit for digit, but they're unbalanced as I recall.
I'm not seeing where you have to be Plate Proficient to be a Juggernaught (Paragon Path). You just have to be a Dreadnought. I didn't bother putting down requirements because they were all pretty obviously Dreadnought PPs. And the Dreadnought is already proficient with heavy armor (chain). You have a choice of 'styles'. Roaring Dreadnoughts get +1 to attack with Battelcries (new keyword) and large Auras of Menace. Inexorable Dreadnoughts get Scale and the ability to single out a creature for a heavy debuff when they trigger their Aura of Menace. The Sinister Dreadnought is fairly new and only half thought out.
Squishiness is not, I think, an inherent necessity of the controller. Staff Wizards generally have higher defenses than defenders, making them highly un-squishy. Furhtermore, the Dreadnought goes an extra step in becoming a Melee Controller. Squishiness is relative based on your methodology of combat. What is squishy for a pure ranged fighter is suicidal for a melee fighter. What is squish for a melee combatant is overkill for a ranged combatant. Because the Dreadnought must engage in melee combat to use almost all of his powers effectively, he needs a higher set of defenses. A ranged combatant can be hit by ranged creatures and chased by melee creatures. A melee combatant can be hit by everyone. So, the Dreadnought trades Squishiness for Range. And it is still pretty squishy for melee combat. They've only got (Inexorable excluded) Chain proficiency, Dex isn't a class skill for them (Int is for the Sinister Dreadnought, but that's still under construction).
Essentially, they have the choice of spending feats to reduce their squishiness (a choice every class has) or remaining squishy relative to their position (melee).
General:
1. Justify Your Existence 2. Know Your Destination 3. Limits Inspire Creativity
I'm not exactly sure how to justify one's existance except by pointing out examples of such in fantasy mythos. But, the Dreadnought fills the shoes of any melee creature that wades into the thick of combat, killing three men with a single swing, and causing others to flee in fear. This sounds familiar but few people can put a name to it because largely, in the mythos, this character is a bad guy, generally a minor one. Also, Conan. Finally, I can't think of any stories I've read in which the Avenger, Invoker, or the Warden are difined in the manner in which they are currently defined. As such, I have difficulty justifying their own existance.
I was aware of my destination at the outset of the Dreadnought. The class would be a big bully. Pushing foes around, lots of forced movement, status effects, and movement impairment. I didn't know exactly what form they were going to take, but that's part of the creative process. I knew there would be Sweeping attacks, Fear attacks, Bulldozing attacks, Jumping attacks, and Throwing attacks (not just throwing weapons). The rest is written down on electrons (I should print that out some time as insurance against crashes!)
I dare say the martial power source is lays down the most limits of any power source. No Ice, Fire, Radiant, Necrotic, or Lightning damage. And believe me, it inspired some creativity. There was a lot of finagling to get the powers right. Fortunately, the Martial Controller is also the most divisive and possibly hated class concept out there and it provided me with miles of negative commentary. Getting a project reviewed by someone that likes it is largely a worthless endeavour. All the hate was very constructive, if frustrating at times. No one picks powers and class features apart like a Martial Controller detractor. The real trick is getting them to take a long and serious look at the class, rather than browsing it and dismissing it out of hand.
If you like, I'd be happy to play test it in our current campaign PBN, with only minor alterations to Brawldefor.
1. Justify Your Existence 2. Know Your Destination 3. Limits Inspire Creativity I'm not exactly sure how to justify one's existance except by pointing out examples of such in fantasy mythos. But, the Dreadnought fills the shoes of any melee creature that wades into the thick of combat, killing three men with a single swing, and causing others to flee in fear. This sounds familiar but few people can put a name to it because largely, in the mythos, this character is a bad guy, generally a minor one. Also, Conan. Finally, I can't think of any stories I've read in which the Avenger, Invoker, or the Warden are difined in the manner in which they are currently defined. As such, I have difficulty justifying their own existance.
I was aware of my destination at the outset of the Dreadnought. The class would be a big bully. Pushing foes around, lots of forced movement, status effects, and movement impairment. I didn't know exactly what form they were going to take, but that's part of the creative process. I knew there would be Sweeping attacks, Fear attacks, Bulldozing attacks, Jumping attacks, and Throwing attacks (not just throwing weapons). The rest is written down on electrons (I should print that out some time as insurance against crashes!)
I dare say the martial power source is lays down the most limits of any power source. No Ice, Fire, Radiant, Necrotic, or Lightning damage. And believe me, it inspired some creativity. There was a lot of finagling to get the powers right. Fortunately, the Martial Controller is also the most divisive and possibly hated class concept out there and it provided me with miles of negative commentary. Getting a project reviewed by someone that likes it is largely a worthless endeavour. All the hate was very constructive, if frustrating at times. No one picks powers and class features apart like a Martial Controller detractor. The real trick is getting them to take a long and serious look at the class, rather than browsing it and dismissing it out of hand.
Those labels come from the recent Design & Development article - and I dare say, you do meet them well. However...
If you like, I'd be happy to play test it in our current campaign PBN, with only minor alterations to Brawldefor.
Not for that campaign, but if we can 5 "regulars", I'll ask Tiny if I can start up a new campaign (as stated) to playtest it.
Again - I'd want to go with the 5. Dreadnaught, Beast Druid, Warlord, Warlock, and Figther - keeping it to combat.
Oh - and you'd play the Dreadnaught - this way if there are any tweaks you feel it would need, you can apply them.
Through the ages, many would wonder "Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?" I wonder "Does the art of discourse on the internet imitate the art of discourse in life or does the art of discourse in life imitate the art of discourse on the internet?"
I've talked about this with a friend of mine, and I think one of the best ways to make a Martial Controller is by making something along the lines of an Anti-Warlord; an Anti-Leader for lack of better words. The Warlord (to some extent) makes allies better through inspiration and encouragement. A martial controller could simply work in reverse. Using insults, bad mouthing, and various other forms of negativity, the Anti-Warlord could cause enemies to doubt their abilities, question their tactics, be afraid, get angry, etc, etc, etc.
Monologue of Doubt
"You've been weighed; you've been measured, and you've been left wanting. In what world could you ever defeat me? Such a place does not exist." With an unshakable bravado you tell your enemy of your impressive skills, your past victories, and play upon their failures; you plant the seeds of doubt in their mind, and cause them to hesitate to take action.
*Martial*
Cha vs Will
Hit: Whatever damage; the target is dazed (save ends.)
I'm both orderly and selfish. I act mostly for my own benefit, but I respect and help my community - Specially when it helps me. At best, I'm loyal and dedicated; at worst, I'm elitist and shrewd.
"The General" is a role sometimes offered as a suggestion for the role. In fact, some have claimed that legend is FILLED with such characters. I disagree. I don't believe there are ANY truly martial controllers present, other than those that employ some form of traps (trapsmith - we'll get back to that). The problem is the scope of the role. Tactics and planning, using your forces to direct and control the enemy is NOT the controller. It is defined as the role of Leader (as it should be, in my opinion).
The Leader role is /not/ litteral, the PH goes out of it's way to point that out. Leaders do not have to lead. The party leader could be a defender or controller or striker, or, as with many adventuring party, there could be no leader. The Leader role heals, enhances, and aids his allies. The Warlord is a leader who, by fluff, exercises some leadership - a few of his powers are litterally giving orders, for instance, but, by 'obeying' those orders, his allies are enhanced in some way, gaining bonuses, extra actions or the like.
The Controller role is obviously different, but, just because it's a different role, doesn't mean some of the same fluff couldn't aply - A Paladin, an Avenger, and an Invoker are all smiting foes with divine might - it'd just do something different. Instead of ordering allies to open fire on a group of enemies giving the allies free ranged attacks (quite powerful, really), it might give the character giving the order a ranged area attack to model the volley of missles. Free attacks for your allies is a leader thing; a ranged area attack is a controller thing. Similar fluff, different power, different role.
The issue that always arises with the trapsmith is one of devices rather than powers.
Here, I agree. With 'trapsmith' or 'grenadier' concepts, you run into the problem of the power being the equipment. Making special equipment is more an arcane thing (like the Artificer). Using normal equipment in ways other's can't is more martial. If the trapsmith just makes ordinary traps but, is exceptionally capable at predicting just where to put them and how to hide them (modeled by choosing where they 'were placed' at the moment they go off, for instance), that could be martial. You couldn't build a whole class around it, but it be /part/ of a class and even have a build focusing on it.
That leaves the last available, the close burst bladesmith. Here, the issue becomes one of agression. This person would be a front-liner and draw the attention of the enemy. This, however, would require enhanced defenses, and the ability to withstand the resulting onslaught. Well, that defines the defender.
Strikers draw enemy attention with thier high, concetrated damage, and defenders are supposed to defend them. The Druid is a controller with some melee options, but he's only tougher than other controllers because all the Primal classes are a little beefier in terms of hps. Defenders presumably do thier job where the meleeing Druid is concerned, too. Melee strikers and druids aren't expected to be defenders, why would a multi-attack melee build have to be a defender? Indeed, such a build couldn't be a defender, since it would step on the controller's role too much, and would be too powerful if it had a defender's durrability.
Multi-attacking, be it close burst, blast, or even ranged is certainly available to martial characters. A controller would have more and better examples of such powers, and pay for the added offense with decreased defense, like every other controller. A multi-attacking martial character with Threatening Reach, for instance, would fill the controller role very well, and the danger closing with him would pose would serve to protect him a bit (make it easier for defenders to do thier jobs), just as other controllers' condition-inflicting powers that slow enemies tend to do.
Those are my thoughts. I'm sure there is disagreement. I truly would like to hear more of the opposing view, as I admit I may have overlooked a point or another. However, as stated, I don't believe it is possible. As a result, should one ever arise, I would think that WotC was straying from their own advice, as the role would NOT truly have a unique purpose, but rather was forced together against most sense of logic and/or verisimilitude.
While the the name of the Martial power source is derived from things military or warlike, it only partially addresses the concepts of the soldier and the general (and those in between, for that matter). Warlords, even tactical ones, inspire, and make thier allies better, but they have only a handful of powers that touch on the duel of wills & tactics that is the stuff of military legend. Fighters fight very well, indeed, but only a few of thier powers touch upon formation fighting, disciplined drills, and the like.
Fighters have also been scrubbed of the potential of the 3.x reach-fighters, no more threatening reach, no more large-area Whirl-wind Attacks. The reason is clear: that would have stomped all over the controllers toes. How can we think that there 'can't be' a martial controller, when the fighter had to be re-designed to /avoid/ being one?
Again - Control requires a certain amount of "squishiness". Martial requires either high damage or high defense. Since you can't have high damage + control without being overpowered, or high defense and be squishy, you end up falling flat.
Martial dose not in any way require either high damage or high defense. The Warlord, for instance, has neither - his defenses are modest, his damage well below the striker level, at best flirting with that of the fighter, if built in that direction. Even if you consider the existing classes to fit what you say, you're still looking at a Source, defining it by it's existing roles, and concluding that the missing role is inapropriate. If you judged Arcane by the Warlock and Wizard, you'd never accept that something like the Swordmage could exist. You're effectively concluding that there can't be a Martial Controller, because no existing martial classes are controllers.
