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Sep 25, 2009 -- 1:49PM, scottsadusky wrote:

Sep 25, 2009 -- 12:58PM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

I'm with acantha on this. This seems directly contrary to the point of the assassin. This "BOGO weapon enhancments" deal is sort of what the assassin is supposed to be all about... at least it seems to me. I might be wrong.

Is the "point of the assassin" (i.e. the way you assign your ki focus to weapons) supposed to be "weapon versatility" (I put it on my fist when I want to appear unarmed, I put it on a weapon when I'm stabbing someone, when I find a weapon I like better and/or feat into, etc.), or is it supposed to be "I get a 2-for-1 gear discount over every other dual-wielding melee class, simply by holding two weapons at once"?  (extreme case is you're saving 3M gold on a lv 30 for your off-hand, not even counting the fact that you're getting "weapon=implement" for free as a class feature)

I see where you are coming from. But, considering the fact that ranged rangers can already use twin strike with one single weapon, I don't know that I agree with you.

Well Cyber dave i really envy how your big baddies are such weaklings. In a typical session with my bard i have right now, I don't just get hit.. I get criticaled. If it wasn't for the DM fudging some numbers my character would have went from nearly full hp to -bloodied in one round. (He forgot to add in the +12 damage or so the monster should have done when he crit hit against me.)

Whats worse was during that encounter, i wasn't even tanking the big baddy. (Which only reason i was tanking was because i was stuck between the orc and our own ranger behind me. Then there was water to my left and a tree to my right so i couldn't shift and move out.)

Your also assuming that the assassin idea i proposed would spend all his time just building his shrouds, when that really isn't the case. One does have to weigh the odds and ends of time vs power. You need to find the right targets. Ect. For example one wouldn't build up shrouds on a minon.. or use thier daily power on the last enemy when they are already bloodied and surrounded. (The ranger who was essentially forcing me to tank did that one.)

Now i'll admit i never really get to use my daily though with my bard, because i hold onto it until i figure its needed.. then by the time i do use it the ranger has already twin striked everything to death.

So really I bet the assassin would do a better job of taking out the big baddy by playing a dumb ranger than even the most intellenigent assassin.

What I sense in that post:

High power level. If you have a twin-strike ranger in the party and combat isn't a breeze, you're in powerplay games. This pretty much means that if you're not a defender and you end up taking hits, you're going down. The only solution to this is having defenders that do their job. If your bard gets stuck between the enemy and a party member, your defender isn't doing his/her job or the party pulled a crit fail on tactics (happens to all parties at some point in time and mostly means people die).

So is it surprising that you should have died being critted by the hardest enemy hitter because you were tanking while you sure as hell shouldn't have been? Not to me.

Now your solution is to stay hidden most of the time, as to not get targetted. This seems like a fine solution at first sight, but there is a fundamental problem: in high power games, the defenders have to deal with limited healing surges and the leaders with limited healing ability. If encounters take too long, they will run out. If that happens, it's either run or be party-wiped. This is where the striker has it's purpose: prevent the encounters from taking too long. To do so, they have to deal damage. Now the most straightforward is a sorcerer using ranged at-wills. Damage output is around 1d8 + 2 stat modifiers + misc modifiers and 1 attack per round. This is what your assassin has to measure up to. To do so, just just can't afford to stay hidden for 2-3 rounds and only nova-attack the round after.

My solution would be using Inescapable blade from the 2nd or 3rd rank to deal reasonable damage while tagging shrouds on a big target, then teleport in for a big hit or use a ranged encounter power (3 attack rolls perhaps?) and then to retreat to the back row again (action point, effect of the power used or face-tanking for a round).

Well, I'm one of the few non-half-elf bards out there probally. So i don't have twin strike. First time i ever used the bard the DM got 6 criticals and we got 6 critcal failures.

Typically thats how it goes for me. When i do get hit, and they always can get to me unless i'm not there, it ususally is for huge damage. Even when i have the highest possible defense (or at least fairly close to it.) the always seem to roll 10-15  points above that. However the defender usually has 2 points or so above thier rolls.

EDIT: Anycase, looking at some of the powers, I've got some ideas here.

Powers that are sustained don't use attack rolls, and thus allow you to remain hidden. One such example is Guild of Shadows.

You can hide off in a shadow, and sustain both the shades form and guild allowing you to make several attacks and do quite a bit of damage while building your shrouds up again..

Possibly when those promissed updates come we might get more persistantable hexes like this at earlier levels that might be useful as well.

My big question is, why are assassins penalized for building up a shroud carefully in combat from the shadows, rather than just spamming melee attacks over and over? I thought they were supposed to play different... but a typical assassin deals 6 DPR if he only attacks every 4 rounds, or 13 DPR if he attacks every single round (I'd sblock the calculations from my spreadsheet, but I don't even know if sblocks exist in the forums yet)

True, D&D is a game of fast-paced combat, not stealthy maneuvering, but if I'm playing an assassin (or rather, one of my players is), I think he should deal MORE damage if he waits 4 rounds between attacks, rather than less.

A sorcerer in ideal circumstance deals 28.65 DPR with burning spray, a ranger with twin strike deals 14.2 DPR, an assassin who spent 4 rounds building up _HIS_ mega-attack deals... 6 DPR. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Isn't that the POINT of an assassin? That he spends a ridiculous amount of time preparing his attack, but when he does make the attack, it was more worth it than just spamming attacks each round?

It's an awesome-looking class. And I know he gets lots of powers that let him teleport and strangle people and go invisible... but he's a striker... why is his DPR so low when he goes through the effort to build it up to full?

I can understand if he's sneaking up on someone and they're unaware of him and initiative hasn't been rolled, building up a shroud is awesome THEN... except without the Hidden Insight feat, that's just impossible, they'll notice the fact they're being shrouded.

All in all, I think the class needs some work... unfortunately, I don't think I've ever seen Wizards do major revisions to anything they've posted in Dungeon/Dragon, so this is me venting more than anything. As it stands, anyone playing an assassin is better served playing a Ranger with a longbow: they'll deal more damage per round, be RANGED, have more hit points, still get Stealth, and so on.

Oh yeah, and because pissing about without actually providing a solution is stupid... make each shroud progressively MORE dangerous. Exponentially. One shroud is 1d6, two shrouds is 3d6, three shrouds is 6d6, four shrouds is 10d6. The result? The DPR of an assassin goes _UP_ the longer he hides in the shadows, rather than down, capping at 17.94 DPR after 4 rounds of building up a shroud.

Nothing is going to help if a monster regularly rolls a 20. But if it doesn't, assuming you build your character correctly, you should be able to get about a 50/50 hit/miss ratio. There are more then enough powers that grant invisibility, after an attack, that a bleak disciple can end up with a 25% hit ratio from his enemies. Couple that with the few powers that make it impossible for an enemy, other than your primary target, to attack you at all, or the powers which make it so that if someone other than your primary target attacks and misses they hit your primary target, you should (theoretically) be fine. Your temporary hit points should help out against the hits that your primary target succesfully makes against you.

As a nightstalker you have plenty of ranged attacks. You should be able to, theoretically, attack from range and then use a move action to hide again. Once your target is bloodied you can run in/teleport in to take him out.

In both these scenarios, you get to attack every round.

Of course, in battle, all battle plans go to cookie crumbs. A string of natural 20's by an enemy will put a dent in anyones battle plans.

Sep 26, 2009 -- 9:50AM, dieffenbachj wrote:

Oh yeah, and because pissing about without actually providing a solution is stupid... make each shroud progressively MORE dangerous. Exponentially. One shroud is 1d6, two shrouds is 3d6, three shrouds is 6d6, four shrouds is 10d6. The result? The DPR of an assassin goes _UP_ the longer he hides in the shadows, rather than down, capping at 17.94 DPR after 4 rounds of building up a shroud.

I'm afraid the result would be somewhat different: Paragon Half-elf assassins with Killer's Insight, Velvet Blade Trick and Versatile Master starting combat with shroud (get an extra one from Killer's Insight), attack with Dilettante at-will (3 shrouds on target). Next turn attack with at-will while you invoke shrouds for an extra 10d6+30. Then put a new shroud on. Turn 3 attack again and shroud, turn 4 attack while invoking for 10d6+30, then shroud again. Rinse, repeat for around 29 DPR if you miss each and every attack. Even if the scaling for difficulty were to be removed, it'd be close to 16 DPR for not hitting anything at all, ever.

Edit: Part of the problem is, again, Half-elf Versatile Master. Velvet Blade Trick should read:
"Benefit: Once per encounter, when you use the power granted by your Dilettante racial trait, you subject the target of your assassin’s shroud power to another shroud."

Sep 26, 2009 -- 10:14AM, Zarhrezz wrote:

Sep 26, 2009 -- 9:50AM, dieffenbachj wrote:

Oh yeah, and because pissing about without actually providing a solution is stupid... make each shroud progressively MORE dangerous. Exponentially. One shroud is 1d6, two shrouds is 3d6, three shrouds is 6d6, four shrouds is 10d6. The result? The DPR of an assassin goes _UP_ the longer he hides in the shadows, rather than down, capping at 17.94 DPR after 4 rounds of building up a shroud.

I'm afraid the result would be somewhat different: Paragon Half-elf assassins with Killer's Insight, Velvet Blade Trick and Versatile Master starting combat with shroud (get an extra one from Killer's Insight), attack with Dilettante at-will (3 shrouds on target). Next turn attack with at-will while you invoke shrouds for an extra 10d6+30. Then put a new shroud on. Turn 3 attack again and shroud, turn 4 attack while invoking for 10d6+30, then shroud again. Rinse, repeat for around 29 DPR if you miss each and every attack. Even if the scaling for difficulty were to be removed, it'd be close to 16 DPR for not hitting anything at all, ever.

 

Edit: Part of the problem is, again, Half-elf Versatile Master. Velvet Blade Trick should read:
"Benefit: Once per encounter, when you use the power granted by your Dilettante racial trait, you subject the target of your assassin’s shroud power to another shroud."

Sep 26, 2009 -- 9:57AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

Nothing is going to help if a monster regularly rolls a 20. But if it doesn't, assuming you build your character correctly, you should be able to get about a 50/50 hit/miss ratio. There are more then enough powers that grant invisibility, after an attack, that a bleak disciple can end up with a 25% hit ratio from his enemies. Couple that with the few powers that make it impossible for an enemy, other than your primary target, to attack you at all, or the powers which make it so that if someone other than your primary target attacks and misses they hit your primary target, you should (theoretically) be fine. Your temporary hit points should help out against the hits that your primary target succesfully makes against you.

As a nightstalker you have plenty of ranged attacks. You should be able to, theoretically, attack from range and then use a move action to hide again. Once your target is bloodied you can run in/teleport in to take him out.

In both these scenarios, you get to attack every round.

Of course, in battle, all battle plans go to cookie crumbs. A string of natural 20's by an enemy will put a dent in anyones battle plans.

Yeah, and when enemies attack me, its like almost always a string. The DM during the first encounter with my bard made the NPC wizard stop casting spells and start using his staff instead to try and help us out.

This is why i really feel that hiding in the shadows and building up shrouds is better than trying to pesdo-tank the big baddy. And pretty much I also agree with Dieffingbachj. I don't want to have to spam attacks like the kobold shammans in ddo just to have the slightest inkling of being useful. (Which as you say, doing nothing but building my shrouds will go against that.)

If I had wanted to do something like that, an Elf Ranger with a greatbow and twin strike would be my best bet for an effective character. the Ranger we had in our parties, even though he tends to do stupid things IMO from time to time, pretty much deals like 40-50 damage each round or something crazy like that. At like level 1 or 2.

Personally, I really think the assassin should be rewarded more for being stealthy, shroud up, strike, flee and hide, shroud up, strike ect than shouting out a death cry like "HULK SMASH!" run up to the enemy and spam everything he can on the enemy.

So yeah, I really think the half-elf crap needs those words put into it. (Partially to make people shut up about "Half-elf or fail".)

The compiled version has Velvet Blade restricted to 1/encounter.

Sep 26, 2009 -- 5:20PM, Sithobi1 wrote:

The compiled version has Velvet Blade restricted to 1/encounter.

i wasn't aware that the assassin has been compiled yet. 

also, if this is true, that sucks. that nerfs my favorite favorite assassin build. 

This is why i really feel that hiding in the shadows and building up shrouds is better than trying to pesdo-tank the big baddy.

You'd think we would have a class in fourth edition whose job it was to do that :P Also, an assassin attacking a target with shrouds is actually doing pretty solid damage even before calling in their shrouds. Like every other class in the game, they need support and aren't capable of dealing with things easily by themselves (their glass cannon nature takes care of that). Exactly as it should be.

If I had wanted to do something like that, an Elf Ranger with a greatbow and twin strike would be my best bet for an effective character. the Ranger we had in our parties, even though he tends to do stupid things IMO from time to time, pretty much deals like 40-50 damage each round or something crazy like that. At like level 1 or 2.

...

Really?

I mean, really? I'd love to know what he's using. Using a greatbow with twin strike at level 1 would be an average of 6.5+6.5=11 damage assuming both hit and then another 3.5 for quarry. If he's human maybe he has the d8 quarry feat for another 1 DPR, or maybe weapon focus for another +2 DPR. That gives you, in optimal circumstances 15.5 (16.5) damage with his at-will (which is still good). What I wonder is how on earth is he getting 40-50 damage with a greatbow? Even with dailies and encounter powers he would be struggling massively to get over 35ishdamage, assuming a critical hit. Maybe with a critical on a daily/encounter attack power and an action point with a warlord in the party.

Maybe.

At _1st level_ a sorcerer can do 29 DPR

With an area of effect attack that optimally includes enough creatures. This is highly misleading of you, because the times where you can get and hit enough creatures to raise your DPR that high is rare compared to the reliable DPR an assassin/ranger or even single target spell will get. That's a far more valid comparison. Average DPR in one my games for a sorcerer at level 1 was something like 1d10+4(cha)+4(Dex) = 13.5 DPR. The twin strike (melee) ranger with a double sword (not optimal of course) was d8+d8+d6 = 12.5 (assuming he hits twice with twin strike of course). The Assassin has a fullblade, so he has 1d12+5(dex)+2(cha)=13.5 DPR. Building his shrouds however makes him more reliable every round, with his at-will and 3 shrouds he does 1d12+5(dex)+2(cha)+3(shrouds) = 16.5 DPR. Easily keeping up with the other strikers and when he uses his shrouds he just does far more. In fact the assassin is extremely reliable for doing damage, wanting to be sodding around and not contributing, when you actually do so incredibly well seems entirely daft to me.

This is of course just from my games that I run, I have not gone out of my way to optimize these in any way (obvious a twin strike ranger with a double sword is far from optimal). But I am not seeing the assassin falling behind. Even a level 1 rogue, with sneak attack and a dagger will be hitting pretty often, for 1d4+5(dex)+2d8(sneak) = 16.5 DPR or so, assuming combat advantage. With a bigger weapon this just gets better, but again I'm drawing this from my actual games and of course daggermaster is just fantastic. The point here is that the Assassin is able to keep up eve with the class regarded as generally one of the highest DPR. I suppose maybe the assassin could have a problem by paragon, I'll be able to see for myself but right now I'm pretty satisfied with the damage it does in practice.

Sep 26, 2009 -- 5:31PM, acantha wrote:

Sep 26, 2009 -- 5:20PM, Sithobi1 wrote:

The compiled version has Velvet Blade restricted to 1/encounter.

i wasn't aware that the assassin has been compiled yet. 

also, if this is true, that sucks. that nerfs my favorite favorite assassin build. 

It's true.

Sep 26, 2009 -- 7:52PM, Shroomy wrote:

Sep 26, 2009 -- 5:31PM, acantha wrote:

Sep 26, 2009 -- 5:20PM, Sithobi1 wrote:

The compiled version has Velvet Blade restricted to 1/encounter.

i wasn't aware that the assassin has been compiled yet. 

also, if this is true, that sucks. that nerfs my favorite favorite assassin build. 

It's true.

is this inside info, or has this compiled version been released and i'm just not seeing it?

Really?

I mean, really? I'd love to know what he's using. Using a greatbow with twin strike at level 1 would be an average of 6.5+6.5=11 damage assuming both hit and then another 3.5 for quarry. If he's human maybe he has the d8 quarry feat for another 1 DPR, or maybe weapon focus for another +2 DPR. That gives you, in optimal circumstances 15.5 (16.5) damage with his at-will (which is still good). What I wonder is how on earth is he getting 40-50 damage with a greatbow? Even with dailies and encounter powers he would be struggling massively to get over 35ishdamage, assuming a critical hit. Maybe with a critical on a daily/encounter attack power and an action point with a warlord in the party.

Maybe.

Well the 40-50 is more of my vision of what he does. But he  totalled up his damage last session and was over 200 points. Most combat during that session was over quickly. like in 2-3 rounds or so. I think we only had three actual combat encounters.

I'd say something like "Well he isn't using the CB so its probally a lot of human fudging on his part." but currently i'm having to review over someones character sheet to make sure the CB didn't do any computer based fudging.

is this inside info, or has this compiled version been released and i'm just not seeing it?

If earlier assassin things are any indication, we should probally check ENworld.

Most likely, what happened was just like with the Paragon and Epic tiers being online 2 - 3 days early, the compiled article is already there.  You just have to know the file name to look for, because it's not linked yet.

Unfortunately, the DDi service is down at the moment, so I can't check myself.

edit: Working now.  Yup, that's what happened.  And yup, Velvet is 1/encounter.

And Intimidate is still not a class skill.  WTF.

Oh, and nothing new was added - ie no Ki Foci, no new feats, no multiclass, etc.  Still going to have to wait for a later article on them.

well whats the file name?

Sep 26, 2009 -- 11:40PM, chanter_hound wrote:

well whats the file name?

edited: not sure if we're supposed to post links to insider content, so redacted. if you're a member, find the link to issue 378 and increment the number to 379

so that sucks, but i guess i'm biased cause my preferred build got nerfed. i do wish they'd explained ki focus a bit better. oh well. 

I'm not sure if Wizards get too annoyed with this or not, but you can't actually get the article unless you are logged in to DnD insider anyway (it's not like it's a public all access link).

It is good to see they fixed the utterly broken Velvet blade straight away. That was going to lead to a lot of "Not half-elf, don't bother" type arguments.

Sep 26, 2009 -- 9:33PM, chanter_hound wrote:

Well the 40-50 is more of my vision of what he does. But he  totalled up his damage last session and was over 200 points. Most combat during that session was over quickly. like in 2-3 rounds or so. I think we only had three actual combat encounters.

Being very generous and assuming an action point with a couple of very lucky critical hits maybe.

But then again I could say that about any class in the entire game so, I'm not really buying your claim at all.

I'd say something like "Well he isn't using the CB so its probally a lot of human fudging on his part."

This is the most likely explanation, or you're really over estimating the damage he does. Are you sure he's not adding + dex damage to twin strike (a fairly common error)? There is absolutely no way he is dealing that much damage per round at level 1 or 2, unless he's adding dex (which does in fact get him pretty close potentially). Assuming human, I can get greatbow and weapon focus greatbow at level 1, with the hunters quarry d8 power at level 2. I'm even being super duper generous and throwing in a magic greatbow!

I can get: 1d12+1 (focus) +5 (assuming 20 dex) + 1 (magic) + d8 (hunters quarry) = 18 damage. Assuming two hits that is 31.5 damage (you don't add the HQ again to the second attack). Even making a huge error with the way the power works and being extremely generous assumption wise I can only barely get near your DPR...

Edit: 200 damage in ~9 rounds, assuming the use of encounter powers, dailies and action points is only ~22 damage a round. That's a far shot off "40-50 DPR" and isn't that impressive to be honest, but is roughly just above the expected DPR of twin strike for a greatbow ranger (so I'm assuming AP, dailies and encounter powers in there as well maybe, because I doubt he hits every single attack). The assassin in my current game in 13 rounds (I looked it up since earlier because I wanted something to compare and I use maptools for tracking monster damage, handily, it also lets me track who did what damage too and precisely how many rounds) he did 321 points of damage (including action points, dailies and such), for a total of ~25 DPR. Looks like he's beating out your very "impressive" twin strike ranger and this isn't really that optimized in any way, it's just the assassin is an absolutely beautifully consistent character for dealing damage :p

The point is if you're going t make up DPR calculations, at least make sure they are fair first :P

Sep 26, 2009 -- 11:25PM, CelticMutt wrote:

And Intimidate is still not a class skill.  WTF.

Indeed. That is the most bizare design decision EVER. Something is really wrong there...

It is extremely easy to solve with a background feat (which most games allow). It should probably be a class skill normally though, but isn't a big deal.

Hmmm, so Velvet Blade trick now also clarifies that the shroud is applied "after the attack is resolved"... If you took a monk power as dilletante, and use it's move option instead of its attack option, can you still use this feat? You're still using an "attack power" even if you aren't using it's "attack technique"...

For that matter, what about if (for some reason) you took the Thunder Pillar attack power (where you never attack anyone, you just conjure something that damages someone if they move next to it..)? Is there an "attack resolved" with that?

No, because you are not making an attack.

Half elves still make very good assassins. At 4th level if they have an AP they can get all 4 shrouds down for their first attack in the round, that's a pretty hefty opening salvo.

Even without an AP they can still reliably go 2 Shrouds, 2 Shrouds from level 4 on.

It's probably a good thing most of the elf feats a are useless to them considering how good the Human ones often work out to be for them.

Sep 28, 2009 -- 1:26AM, Aegeri wrote:

No, because you are not making an attack.

I hate to get all Bill Clinton on ya, but where is "making an attack" defined?

You are using an "attack power"

Sep 28, 2009 -- 9:00AM, Cailte wrote:

Half elves still make very good assassins. At 4th level if they have an AP they can get all 4 shrouds down for their first attack in the round, that's a pretty hefty opening salvo.

Even without an AP they can still reliably go 2 Shrouds, 2 Shrouds from level 4 on.

It's probably a good thing most of the elf feats a are useless to them considering how good the Human ones often work out to be for them.

what combo lets the half elf do 2 shrouds a turn after 4th level?

I'm kind of miffed that hidden insight was not turned into an inherent property of the shrouds...

Sep 28, 2009 -- 11:22AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

I'm kind of miffed that hidden insight was not turned into an inherent property of the shrouds...

agreed. i feel like its punishing people who want to role play the class the way it was mean to be played. for those making an optimised striker, they've little use of it, but those who want to sneak about have to take an extra feat. seems weird, and i'll be houseruling it.

Just sent the following question to CS about VBT. Will let you know what they reply. (Not that many of us take CS too seriously, but I am curious.)

Sep 28, 2009 -- 12:53PM, Gadren wrote:

The benefit of the Velvet Blade Trick feat says the following: "Once per encounter, when you use the power granted by your Dilettante racial trait, you subject the target of your assassin’s shroud power to another shroud after you resolve the attack."

The "after you resolve the attack" part is clear enough for MOST at-will attack powers, but is an "attack resolved" with the few powers that don't make attack rolls, or immediately damage the target?

For example, the wizard's storm pillar never makes an attack roll, and only damages a target that moves adjacent to it. The cleric's Astral Seal doesn't do any damage. The monk at-will attack powers have options that never make attack or damage rolls, but instead allow you to move a prone target into your space and move into their space, shift 2, etc.

Is Velvet Blade Trick usable with these (and similar) at-will attack powers?

Sep 28, 2009 -- 11:12AM, acantha wrote:

Sep 28, 2009 -- 9:00AM, Cailte wrote:

Half elves still make very good assassins. At 4th level if they have an AP they can get all 4 shrouds down for their first attack in the round, that's a pretty hefty opening salvo.

Even without an AP they can still reliably go 2 Shrouds, 2 Shrouds from level 4 on.

It's probably a good thing most of the elf feats a are useless to them considering how good the Human ones often work out to be for them.

what combo lets the half elf do 2 shrouds a turn after 4th level?

Only for 2 rounds.

Shroud + 1/2elf feat
Shroud + second shroud feat.

An "attack" is defined as an Attack roll vs. an enemy defense.  Thus a bonus to a "single attack" only gets the first hit of an aoe or multiattack strike.

Sep 28, 2009 -- 12:53PM, Gadren wrote:

Just sent the following question to CS about VBT. Will let you know what they reply. (Not that many of us take CS too seriously, but I am curious.)

Sep 28, 2009 -- 12:53PM, Gadren wrote:

The benefit of the Velvet Blade Trick feat says the following: "Once per encounter, when you use the power granted by your Dilettante racial trait, you subject the target of your assassin’s shroud power to another shroud after you resolve the attack."

The "after you resolve the attack" part is clear enough for MOST at-will attack powers, but is an "attack resolved" with the few powers that don't make attack rolls, or immediately damage the target?

For example, the wizard's storm pillar never makes an attack roll, and only damages a target that moves adjacent to it. The cleric's Astral Seal doesn't do any damage. The monk at-will attack powers have options that never make attack or damage rolls, but instead allow you to move a prone target into your space and move into their space, shift 2, etc.

Is Velvet Blade Trick usable with these (and similar) at-will attack powers?

Storm Pillar is about as 'not covered by the rules' as they come, this is a snip from a (rather long) coversation with CS (dating back to May this year) about Storm Pillar:

"In regards to the questions about the term "when you use a power," that is a little unclear when it interacts with passive abilities that you are not performing actions to make them work. Unfortunately, there isn’t an official answer for the situation you describe. I’ve passed along this conversation to the game’s developers. Hopefully, we’ll see an update  or  FAQ entry covering it soon, but until then it’s up to the campaign’s Dungeon Master to decide.

In fact there are several things that are unclear when it comes to Storm Pillar, like passing through multiple squares or multiple Storm Pillars. We're awaiting an FAQ on those questions too.

But in regards to your other questions about attacking, you actually have to attack to get those benefits. If an effect you controls deals damage without you making an attack roll, then any ability that requires you to "hit" or "attack" does not work."

Also note that when there's no attack roll or damage roll, there's no bonus damage from any source...this is what makes Storm Pillar a rather weak power...2d6+10 is the maximum possible damage of that power at level 28. Yay. Chilling Cloud is equally ineffective with it's maximum possible damage of 20 at level 28. /off-topic

Sep 28, 2009 -- 10:25AM, Gadren wrote:

Sep 28, 2009 -- 1:26AM, Aegeri wrote:

No, because you are not making an attack.

I hate to get all Bill Clinton on ya, but where is "making an attack" defined?

You are using an "attack power"

Making an attack and what an attack is defined in the players hand book. If you read the combat section, it discusses what constitutes an attack.

The monk power is NOT an attack. It's clearly defined in the PHB and it is a d20 roll vs. defense.

And of course I see someone has already beaten me to this explanation by miles . That's what I get for sleeping.

Sep 28, 2009 -- 11:12AM, acantha wrote:

what combo lets the half elf do 2 shrouds a turn after 4th level?

It is not 2 shrouds a turn, every turn, but 2 shrouds 2 turns in a row when they want.

Feats:  Killer’s Insight, Velvet Blade Trick, Crimson Eye Action

That lets you do 4 shrouds in 1 turn with an AP, or 2 Shrouds, followed by 2 Shrouds in any encounter you don't have an AP for. Yes you can do 2 then 2 from level 2, and the 4 shroud combo for level 4.

Heck its possibly better to go, 2,2,2, even when you do have an AP.

The one problem I'm seeing with Assassin is "why not multi into Rogue?", you get combat advantage so often and easily that having a Shortsword on hand is hardly a problem considering the boost in damage output.

With 4 shrouds and a Short Sword with Sneak Attack that's 7d6+ once per encounter, combo it with a 2[W] or higher attack and it is even better, and it is not like Humans or Half-Elves would have trouble getting this to happen by level 4.

Even better in FR is picking up the Ghost of Eventide PP whivh gives your melee attacks +1d6 damage when you have concealment. Now you are looking at 9d6 from a melee attack once per encounter.... and [W]+1d6 most rounds, making it only necassary to have 2 shrouds down typically.

I'm really not seeing a problem with the rogue thing. Its not more of a damage boost than any other striker in the game multiclassing into rogue is. Rangers, monks, and avengers could all make easy use out of a rogue multiclass as well. And, honestly, assassin->rogue moulticlass sort of thematically fits. I'm good with it.

Sep 28, 2009 -- 11:12AM, acantha wrote:

...

The one problem I'm seeing with Assassin is "why not multi into Rogue?", you get combat advantage so often and easily that having a Shortsword on hand is hardly a problem considering the boost in damage output.

...

I actually was comparing alot of MCs when I built my assassin.

The number of [W] for assassin powers is lower because you can use bigger weapons, probably something around d10. 2d10 compared to 2d6 is a big jump, 3d10 even moreso, etc. So the problem becomes picking up a feat, power, or item that makes switching weapons more easy, so you only use that weapon for sneak attack, but even when you do you are doing less damage with your weapon, making the sneak attack not so great.

I think much better options are hunter's quarry, bravo, or oath of enmity. They all give a comparable bonus to damage, and have no weapon restrictions. If you are an assassin from the Windrise Ports, I'd probably suggest MCing into ranger and avenger (if you have the wisdom), or ranger and bravo. I'd actually put rogue pretty low on the list for MCs to pick.

Ghost of Eventine IS a pretty good PP for assassins, though (since none of its powers require light blades)... but if you MC rogue to pick it up, I'd probably suggest sly dodge instead of sneak of shadows.

Quick and easy trick on the use of Sneak Attack. For this, you need - an enchanted ki focus, a short sword, a two-handed weapon you like and a means of drawing as a free action (Quick Draw or Fast Hands work nicely).

Step 1: Hit with one of the various Assassin abilities that generate combat advantage. There's plenty.

Step 2: Either in the same round (if it was a minor action ability) or the next round (if it was an attack that grants CA "until the end of your next turn), begin your turn by removing one hand from your two-handed weapon. You won't be able to attack with it, but can hold it one handed. 

Step 3: Make a Sneak Attack with your short sword, drawing it as a free action, and score that 1-5d6 damage. For best results, use an at-will power to make the attack so you waste as little [W] damage as possible.

Step 4: Drop the short sword as a free action (you can even say you're leaving it in your opponent, for extra style points).

Step 5: Resume your grip on your two-handed weapon as a free action. 

Step 6: Continue making mayhem. Remember to pick up your short sword from the bodies later.

If you're worried about missing with the short sword attack, just carry a couple of extras on your belt and repeat as needed until you hit and score that Sneak Attack damage.

Sep 28, 2009 -- 9:57PM, Gadren wrote:

I actually was comparing alot of MCs when I built my assassin.

The number of [W] for assassin powers is lower because you can use bigger weapons, probably something around d10. 2d10 compared to 2d6 is a big jump, 3d10 even moreso, etc. So the problem becomes picking up a feat, power, or item that makes switching weapons more easy, so you only use that weapon for sneak attack, but even when you do you are doing less damage with your weapon, making the sneak attack not so great.

I think much better options are hunter's quarry, bravo, or oath of enmity. They all give a comparable bonus to damage, and have no weapon restrictions. If you are an assassin from the Windrise Ports, I'd probably suggest MCing into ranger and avenger (if you have the wisdom), or ranger and bravo. I'd actually put rogue pretty low on the list for MCs to pick.

Ghost of Eventine IS a pretty good PP for assassins, though (since none of its powers require light blades)... but if you MC rogue to pick it up, I'd probably suggest sly dodge instead of sneak of shadows.

My thoughts on my Assassin goign into rogue would be to take a superior weapon proficiency for Bastard Sword or Craghammer (HBO or Hammer Rythym come Epic levels woudl be nice) and TWF with a dagger or short sword int he off hand.  You attack with the main weapon and use the off-hand for the sneak attack. 

I was really looking at it to go with the Shadow Assassin PP for the Rogue.  +4 to attack rolls with an AP, and extra die of sneak attack damage, the Riposte feature, a 3[W] attack and a 5[W] attack vs. a bloodied creature which can be a great strike when combined with invoking your shrouds.

True you have to be using your light blade in the attacks, but then again, that also somewhat depends on your DM.  You can make a strong case that TWF means you're wielding both weapons when you make the attack based on the wording of those feats in relation tothe FAQ ruling on what wielding means.  But as i said, that mileage may vary based on the DM (and is unlikely to work in the RPGA).  and that's easily gotten around with either a double-sword or using the Spiked Chain Training feat anyway. 

Still, 5d6 + 4d8 (backstabber) + (4d6+12) (paragon shrouds) + Dex is a nice amount of spike damage vs. a bloodied enemy.  61.5 average before Dex mods, although by 20th you can assume a 24 Dex (+7) so 68.5 average form that isn't too far off.  You'd do a little better using a double sword. (d8 off hand attack)  That goes up to 66.5 with a double sword, and 69 average with a spiked chain.

Final ending is also a 5[W] power (from the Soul Thief assassin PP) which you can also get your sneak attack on.  (only 3d8 in that case).  Although a Double Sword/Sneak Attack on this power also outdoes what you'd get, average damage-wise, just using a fullblade and shrouds by 3.5 points of damage. (62 average for the double-sword+SA+Shrouds vs. 58.5 for Fullblade+shrouds)

EDIT: I also forgot tomention that, at least for me, I have come to see the assassin as more of a spike damage striker than a stand-up DPR striker.  Especially when combined with Sneak of Shadows.  Also somethingto consider as a Rogue MC, you can also take a bastard sword and a spiked shield.  You get the shield bonus and it counts as an off-hand light blade.  So when you want to sneak attack you attack with the shield.  Enchant it with a weapon enchantment and you ca still use bracers as well.  No need to switch weapons.

The Ranger Multi is indeed useful, but the power swap feat options are not as appealing, similarly with the PPs.

The Avenger multi has the problem that you need to put attribute points into Wis, that is a problem for Assassin builds, as Wis does basically nothing for them, and short of paragon classes the MC into Avenger offers only increased accuracy, which works out about the same as having CA most of the time anyway in practice. Also the dependance on Wis makes the PPs you gain access to unappealing.

The Rogue MC for Sneak Attack, normally has the problem that it is hard to consistently get Combat Advantage for non-rogues, and using a light weapon is often a problem. But truth is for an Assassin that is less of a problem than it appears. Also I hear thievery is a handy skill for stealth types just from a "I need to break into places to do my job" kind of RP perspective...

I recently built a Human nightstalker Assassin up to level 25, and filling his late paragon and epic feats was rather challening.  However, it has made me rather curious as to what we may come to see when more assassin related epic/paragon feats get release. So I want to ask the community, what would you expect new assassin paragon and epic feats to allow or change, and what type of feats do you hope or want to see?

Sep 29, 2009 -- 8:41AM, Cailte wrote:

The Avenger multi has the problem that you need to put attribute points into Wis, that is a problem for Assassin builds, as Wis does basically nothing for them, and short of paragon classes the MC into Avenger offers only increased accuracy, which works out about the same as having CA most of the time anyway in practice. Also the dependance on Wis makes the PPs you gain access to unappealing.

This isn't a problem at all for Bleak Disciples. Charisma can be your dump stat in fact. Soul Thief, probably the best Assassin PP, doesn't rely on Cha or Con. It's only a problem for Night Stalkers.

Customer Service feedback, as I promised before...

Sep 28, 2009 -- 12:53PM, Gadren wrote:

Just sent the following question to CS about VBT. Will let you know what they reply. (Not that many of us take CS too seriously, but I am curious.)

Sep 28, 2009 -- 12:53PM, Gadren wrote:

The benefit of the Velvet Blade Trick feat says the following: "Once per encounter, when you use the power granted by your Dilettante racial trait, you subject the target of your assassin’s shroud power to another shroud after you resolve the attack."

The "after you resolve the attack" part is clear enough for MOST at-will attack powers, but is an "attack resolved" with the few powers that don't make attack rolls, or immediately damage the target?

For example, the wizard's storm pillar never makes an attack roll, and only damages a target that moves adjacent to it. The cleric's Astral Seal doesn't do any damage. The monk at-will attack powers have options that never make attack or damage rolls, but instead allow you to move a prone target into your space and move into their space, shift 2, etc.

Is Velvet Blade Trick usable with these (and similar) at-will attack powers?

Customer Service Response:

Michael,

"Resolving the attack" basically means ending the action in which you made the attack. So a power like "Storm Pillar" is considered resolved as soon as the standard action is over.


Thanks, and Good Gaming!

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My response to their response:

Sep 28, 2009 -- 12:53PM, Gadren wrote:

Thank you. That answer applies to the powers listed besides Thunder Pillar as well? (Such as the Monk at-will attack powers' movement techniques?)

And their response to my response to their response:

Michael,

It will apply to those other powers as well. It's just looking for the power to be resolved.

Take Care and Good Gaming!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you.  Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Paul

Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
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425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
Saturday-Sunday 10am-4pm PST / 1pm-7pm EST

Wow, I'm actually surprised that didn't ellicit the typical cascade about how CS doesn't know what it's talking about, etc. lol...

Sep 29, 2009 -- 11:46AM, Awesomologist wrote:

This isn't a problem at all for Bleak Disciples. Charisma can be your dump stat in fact. Soul Thief, probably the best Assassin PP, doesn't rely on Cha or Con. It's only a problem for Night Stalkers.

You still have the need for Str for the weapon feats in Paragon and Epic - You either have Dex/Cha/Str and use Heavy or Light Blades or Dex/Con/Str and use Axes or Hammers.

For people using the two handed weapons (sacrificing defense) or the lower accuracy high damage versatile weapons Avenger is a good MC. For people using lower damage more accurate versatile weapons (or spending a feat for Bastard Sword) Avenger's boost is on par to or below Rogue and Ranger.

It also doesn't have the flexibility of the Feat swap powers that Rogue in particular offers; Fleeting Ghost, Chameleon, and Shadow Stride are all excelent choices for an Assassin to gain via Feat swap. Keep in mind we are talking about a character that can hide behind other party memebers to trigger these powers, along with having many ways to turn invisible and make a stealth check, further triggering these powers.

Along with that the Assassin has an at will teleport to escape grabs etc or move around the battlefield, as long as another PC moves within 3 squares of you. (Hey I'm in a pit with a monster, now I'm up here beside my buddy... hey I'm grabbed by this constrictor, now I'm over here beside my buddy.. etc etc) Which negates the need to take most of the utilities for Avenger or Ranger.

Then there are the attacks for power swaps - Ranger offers you Ranged attacks based on Dex, this is good as Assassin lacks a lot of long range (ie 10 square +) attacks. Avenger makes its attacks off Wisdom so you need to pump Wisdom up to get the best use out of Avenger attacks, which reduces your broader options. Rogue offers accurate attacks (vs stats other than AC) with multi [W] damage, that are based on Dex, which can be ranged or melee, or both.

Sep 29, 2009 -- 10:42PM, Gadren wrote:

Wow, I'm actually surprised that didn't ellicit the typical cascade about how CS doesn't know what it's talking about, etc. lol...

Your post was pretty late at night.

I have no problem with the Feat working for powers that aren't "attacks"- it'd be unfair if it didn't- but it should be re-written to mention "Attack power" instead.

Sep 30, 2009 -- 12:32AM, Cailte wrote:

Sep 29, 2009 -- 11:46AM, Awesomologist wrote:

This isn't a problem at all for Bleak Disciples. Charisma can be your dump stat in fact. Soul Thief, probably the best Assassin PP, doesn't rely on Cha or Con. It's only a problem for Night Stalkers.

You still have the need for Str for the weapon feats in Paragon and Epic - You either have Dex/Cha/Str and use Heavy or Light Blades or Dex/Con/Str and use Axes or Hammers.

For people using the two handed weapons (sacrificing defense) or the lower accuracy high damage versatile weapons Avenger is a good MC. For people using lower damage more accurate versatile weapons (or spending a feat for Bastard Sword) Avenger's boost is on par to or below Rogue and Ranger.

It also doesn't have the flexibility of the Feat swap powers that Rogue in particular offers; Fleeting Ghost, Chameleon, and Shadow Stride are all excelent choices for an Assassin to gain via Feat swap. Keep in mind we are talking about a character that can hide behind other party memebers to trigger these powers, along with having many ways to turn invisible and make a stealth check, further triggering these powers.

Along with that the Assassin has an at will teleport to escape grabs etc or move around the battlefield, as long as another PC moves within 3 squares of you. (Hey I'm in a pit with a monster, now I'm up here beside my buddy... hey I'm grabbed by this constrictor, now I'm over here beside my buddy.. etc etc) Which negates the need to take most of the utilities for Avenger or Ranger.

Then there are the attacks for power swaps - Ranger offers you Ranged attacks based on Dex, this is good as Assassin lacks a lot of long range (ie 10 square +) attacks. Avenger makes its attacks off Wisdom so you need to pump Wisdom up to get the best use out of Avenger attacks, which reduces your broader options. Rogue offers accurate attacks (vs stats other than AC) with multi [W] damage, that are based on Dex, which can be ranged or melee, or both.

Yea. The rogue powers also force you to use weapons which deal much smaller damage dice. And, you don't HAVE to take a high strength for strength based weapon feats. You can choose not to make use of a 19-20 crit range. Its not a necessary feature. Its just a feat. Having a 5% lower crit range, in favor of a different feat, is not going to break your character.

It is very possible to build a nice Dex/Con/Wis or even Dex/Cha/Wis based build. Avenger multiclassing is very doable. And rogue multiclassing isn't some overpowered be all and end all. They are both just options. Each will appeal to different types of players. Neither is particularly overpowered.

P.S. I just wanted to note, after looking at the assassins weapon proficiencies for quite a while, that I am disappointed with them. The inclusion of two-handed blades really bothers me. I think the class would have been more flavorful if it was focused around the use of one handed blades (even versatile ones, which can be used two handed). If, for example, the assassin's shroud feature could only be invoked with an implement attack, or a weapon attack made with a one handed weapon, but the shroud dealt 1d8 instead of 1d6 (and perhaps added +4 per tier instead of +3) I think the assassins flavor would have been a lot better.

I understand the developers goal of not copycatting the rogue, but something about assassins wielding two-handed swords, full-blades, craighammers, and the like, just feels wrong to me.

This is of course nothing but my personal subjective opinion.

Sep 25, 2009 -- 3:53PM, chanter_hound wrote:

Being able to stay hidden and eliminate the biggest baddy while not getting ganged up on is better IMO than running straight into combat and forcing all the leaders to heal your sorry behind.

Quoted for truth.  I don't play a lot of strikers, though I play a mixed bag of characters (my other characters include Dwarf Fighter, Dwarf Warden, Genasi Artificer w/bow, Goldiath Barbarian/Bard hybrid, Dwarf Shaman and a Kalashtar Psion.  I'm also familiar with ranged Rangers because I had to help a ranger player when she first joined a lot.)

Last weekend I played two different Avengers for the first time at a local RPGA convention, one being a Githzerai Pursuing and the other being a Deva Unity.

My Gith didn't do to badly, because things were usually dead before I had any problems (and we had no leaders, so second wind was our only friend), but I noticedi in both games with my Deva I was out of healing surges before the end of the module, and I was so not used to that happening - not even on my controllers.  The thing is, my controllers usually know enough to stay back and not get hit wheras now I had to be in melee.  I learned at the end of the 2nd game that using my ranged at-will that grants me temp HP, then going in for some melee smackdown, then moving back to get temp HP again was really my best option.  The fact that the Deva had Healer's Mercy also helped, but isn't that great when you have no Surges yourself.

Granted, I was doing enough damage that the enemies (mostly giant ants) were ignoring marks to come after me.

My other main striker, the Barbarian/Bard, doesn't have too much problems because he has a reach weapon and can heal himself in a pinch.

Now that I think about it, my very first character was a Dwarf melee Ranger, and I learned very quickly that winning initiative and charging into the enemies before your allies can back you up is a very bad thing!

Now all that said, the Assassin has me cautiously optimistic.  I know I'm a little too gung-ho with my melee strikers for this to be worthwhile for me.  I'd consider the Assassin for multiclass with my Gith avenger (Who is Windrise Ports and already has a fighter multiclass to get a free attack on enemies who try to shift away from him 1/encounter), but until we actually know what the Assassin multiclass feat is, that doesn't do me much good.

Sep 29, 2009 -- 10:32AM, MrAlgothi wrote:

I recently built a Human nightstalker Assassin up to level 25, and filling his late paragon and epic feats was rather challening.  However, it has made me rather curious as to what we may come to see when more assassin related epic/paragon feats get release. So I want to ask the community, what would you expect new assassin paragon and epic feats to allow or change, and what type of feats do you hope or want to see?

Challenging as in "I have nothign to take" or as in "I have too many things I have to take?"

I mock built an Assassin out to level 30 and my problem was there were too many good feats to take that i didn't have enough slots.  A lot of the Paragon/Epic slots were actually taken by Heroic tier feats.

Oct 1, 2009 -- 1:10PM, shivafang wrote:

Sep 25, 2009 -- 3:53PM, chanter_hound wrote:

Being able to stay hidden and eliminate the biggest baddy while not getting ganged up on is better IMO than running straight into combat and forcing all the leaders to heal your sorry behind.

Quoted for truth.  I don't play a lot of strikers, though I play a mixed bag of characters (my other characters include Dwarf Fighter, Dwarf Warden, Genasi Artificer w/bow, Goldiath Barbarian/Bard hybrid, Dwarf Shaman and a Kalashtar Psion.  I'm also familiar with ranged Rangers because I had to help a ranger player when she first joined a lot.)

Last weekend I played two different Avengers for the first time at a local RPGA convention, one being a Githzerai Pursuing and the other being a Deva Unity.

My Gith didn't do to badly, because things were usually dead before I had any problems (and we had no leaders, so second wind was our only friend), but I noticedi in both games with my Deva I was out of healing surges before the end of the module, and I was so not used to that happening - not even on my controllers.  The thing is, my controllers usually know enough to stay back and not get hit wheras now I had to be in melee.  I learned at the end of the 2nd game that using my ranged at-will that grants me temp HP, then going in for some melee smackdown, then moving back to get temp HP again was really my best option.  The fact that the Deva had Healer's Mercy also helped, but isn't that great when you have no Surges yourself.

Granted, I was doing enough damage that the enemies (mostly giant ants) were ignoring marks to come after me.

My other main striker, the Barbarian/Bard, doesn't have too much problems because he has a reach weapon and can heal himself in a pinch.

Now that I think about it, my very first character was a Dwarf melee Ranger, and I learned very quickly that winning initiative and charging into the enemies before your allies can back you up is a very bad thing!

Now all that said, the Assassin has me cautiously optimistic.  I know I'm a little too gung-ho with my melee strikers for this to be worthwhile for me.  I'd consider the Assassin for multiclass with my Gith avenger (Who is Windrise Ports and already has a fighter multiclass to get a free attack on enemies who try to shift away from him 1/encounter), but until we actually know what the Assassin multiclass feat is, that doesn't do me much good.

well, yeah, today i had more adventures that match up with my current philosiphy of "Don't let the enemy attack you. EVER!"

I decided to play a defender. A whip master defender at that, with the deva hertige to through out -2 penalty, And my whips give a -2 penalty. But doing all this didn't matter. It didn't matter i was even at full life. The monster thing attacked me, rolling 2 crits, dispite being knocked prone and taking a -4 to hit me takes me from 33 hp, right down to 0. Before him, was previous battles that hit me for another 2 criticals. So in one session, i got 4 criticals against me. (Not to mention the several critical failures from skill checks and attacking)

Oct 1, 2009 -- 8:35PM, Dragon9 wrote:

Challenging as in "I have nothign to take" or as in "I have too many things I have to take?"

There wasnt a shortage of good feats, but I was trying to pick feats that went with the whole theme of an assassin, and those were a little thin.  My DM then suggested we house rule up some epic and paragon feats, so know Im firmly in the 'Too many feats, not enough slots' crowd. 

Did anybody notice they flipped the Suggested Encounter Power for the Bleak Disciple and Night Stalker? 

It should be Bleak Disciple Suggested Encounter Power: smothering shadow

and Night Stalker Suggested Encounter Power: nightmare shades

Well I finally got some play time in with my Assassin, and I have to say I'm very happy with her. Assassin/Rogue MC, using Longsword or Shortsword for attacks.

The need to "run into combat" just wasn't there, you could happily go last or near last in initiative (or delay to see what the Monsters do) and work very well, perhaps better.

She took typical sorts of damage in most encounters, and would have used 4 of her 6 surges in 3 fights except there were two Shaman PCs in the party.

She was able to routinely do 10-20 damage a round, with spikes over 30 when using 2W attacks.

I found that putting 2 shrouds down was more effective than using 3 in a combat situation. It basically took to long to get 3 shrouds down so it was a waste of effort, especially with 2 other PCs attacking the same monster. (1 in melee, 1 at range).

Shadow Storm was just brutal, I was routinely getting +4 extra damage from the "each creature adjacent", and when it was an isolated monster surrounded by PCs the Night Stalker +Cha (+2) kicking in was pushing it to 10 damage before rolling the dice regularly.

Leaping Shade turned out to be a non-event, as it was offering +1 at best due to always triggering after having the 2nd shroud down, but I can see how it would be very good for when you can put multiple shrouds down quickly so that you can get +2/+3 then blow the shrouds using Shadow Storm or a 2W attack.

I never had a need to use Inescapable Shadow, but I remain happy to have it, no doubt there will be times when a melee +2 reach will matter.

Gloom Thief was good, in the two combats where I hit with it, it ensured she basically wasn't attacked for a round (-5 to attacks and guesing where you are hurts).

Grave Spike worked well enough, but the monster I used it on didn't survive her second attack so it didn't really matter, but I can see the advantage of it just fine.

There were very few rounds when I wasn't able to Shadow Step, and in one encounter having Shadow Step largely negated a creature's key power (Threatening Reach Grab), though that was the encounter she took the most damage in (because 2d6+3 followed by 1d8 at the start of your turn hurts a low HP character).

Overall very happy with the way the character worked, very much comparable to a rogue in terms of damage output, without the need to go to high risk situations  to get combat advantage.

Hmm.... now that we have our "ninja".... where's our pirate? Epic showdown time!

Oct 4, 2009 -- 4:22PM, Samrin wrote:

Hmm.... now that we have our "ninja".... where's our pirate? Epic showdown time!

We've always had Ninja. Rogues get a bonus with shuriken for Chris' sake.

As for pirate. Well, what would you want to see that's so "pirate-y that a rogue trained in athletics and acrobatics can't already do?"

Oct 4, 2009 -- 4:29PM, Gadren wrote:

Oct 4, 2009 -- 4:22PM, Samrin wrote:

Hmm.... now that we have our "ninja".... where's our pirate? Epic showdown time!

We've always had Ninja. Rogues get a bonus with shuriken for Chris' sake.

As for pirate. Well, what would you want to see that's so "pirate-y that a rogue trained in athletics and acrobatics can't already do?"

It was a joke.... see Ninja vs. Pirate.

Oct 4, 2009 -- 4:22PM, Samrin wrote:

Hmm.... now that we have our "ninja".... where's our pirate? Epic showdown time!

Beastmaster (raptor) ranger with a rapier and dagger. Your bow is actually a brace of pistols- draw and fire 2 per round.

Oct 4, 2009 -- 6:35PM, Anubis_Reynard wrote:

Oct 4, 2009 -- 4:22PM, Samrin wrote:

Hmm.... now that we have our "ninja".... where's our pirate? Epic showdown time!

Beastmaster (raptor) ranger with a rapier and dagger. Your bow is actually a brace of pistols- draw and fire 2 per round.

Or you could be Valor Bard with a cutlass (longsword) MCed into Warlock who reflavor's his Master's Wand(s) of Eldritch Blast as a pistol(s). (So you can keep your focus on Charisma. Plus, it's more like an old muzzle-loader if you have to wait til a short rest to reload it.)

EDIT: Actually, you wouldn't even have to MC into Warlock, since a bard can already use wands anyway, heh.

It's the difference between a hero pirate and a dirty pirate. Besides, my parrot or monkey companion can kick the ass of your parrot or monkey familiar. :p

Oct 4, 2009 -- 6:48PM, Anubis_Reynard wrote:

It's the difference between a hero pirate and a dirty pirate. Besides, my parrot or monkey companion can kick the ass of your parrot or monkey familiar. :p

Well, if you have to let your pet do the fighting for you...

Bwahah! You didn't think I'd fight fair, did you? It's against the pirate code, I think.

Parley!

Damn to the depths whatever man what thought of "Parley!"

Actually, I'd love to see a Duelist or Swashbuckler martial class so that way we can have a dexed based fighter that isn't limited to light blades.

I wouldn't. Its already covered with a rogue who has the rapier feat. Because, honestly, the "swords" that swashbucklers and duelists use ARE light blades.

Then again, if this dex/based martial combatant build is based not of the image of a rapier wielding swashbuckler, but rather on more concepts like the "sword-saint" monk, or "iaijutsu" blade-master, then I see the point for the class.

Ah, but really the rogue doesn't cover that. Sure the rapier and stuff are light blades, but the rogue isn't like the Dread Pirate Roberts (Aka Westly.)

The rogue is ONLY about getting Combat advantage or you suck. You are also limited to light blades (beyond a few minor jerry-rigs), while the duelist/swashbuckler thingy wouldn't have such limitations. Infact the duelist/swashbuckler would be much more like a fighter, but in light or no armor and very very mobile. 

The most important thing for me about this duelist/swashbuckler thingy though, like i said isn't bound to light blades, so is the first class that would give the whip MC feat a proper home. Assassins are one of the few classes that actually use Dex for attacking in melee. Most of them use Str or some other stat.

Only reason I use Swashbuckler/duelist thingy is because thats what the 3.5 dex fighter was.

Edit: Heck, really it could be some new path or something in fighter or rogue that breaks some of their norms, but says like you can't use 2h weapons with it or shields or something.The biggest keys for me though is that it has to be able to do acrobatics and be able to use whips with dex.

But my vision of a swashbuckler is a guy who uses either a 1h weapon due to its effinecy, or uses a 1h weapon, with an off hand weapon to parry attacks. Basically an agressive build and a defensive build.

My swashbuckling Pirate is a swordmage with Parrot familiar...

(I'm still debating making the swordmage mute...)

Oct 4, 2009 -- 10:55PM, chanter_hound wrote:

Ah, but really the rogue doesn't cover that. Sure the rapier and stuff are light blades, but the rogue isn't like the Dread Pirate Roberts (Aka Westly.)

The rogue is ONLY about getting Combat advantage or you suck. You are also limited to light blades (beyond a few minor jerry-rigs), while the duelist/swashbuckler thingy wouldn't have such limitations. Infact the duelist/swashbuckler would be much more like a fighter, but in light or no armor and very very mobile. 

The most important thing for me about this duelist/swashbuckler thingy though, like i said isn't bound to light blades, so is the first class that would give the whip MC feat a proper home. Assassins are one of the few classes that actually use Dex for attacking in melee. Most of them use Str or some other stat.

 

Only reason I use Swashbuckler/duelist thingy is because thats what the 3.5 dex fighter was.

 

Edit: Heck, really it could be some new path or something in fighter or rogue that breaks some of their norms, but says like you can't use 2h weapons with it or shields or something.The biggest keys for me though is that it has to be able to do acrobatics and be able to use whips with dex.

But my vision of a swashbuckler is a guy who uses either a 1h weapon due to its effinecy, or uses a 1h weapon, with an off hand weapon to parry attacks. Basically an agressive build and a defensive build.

Yea, sorry, I dsiagree with you. I think that the term "rogue," as well as the manner in which the class plays, is exactly what the dread pirate roberts was. The rogue offers a number of ways to get combat advantage via fancy footwork. And in the film, Westly won his combats by knowing the weaknesses of his enemies and using those weaknesses against them (read: sneak attack). I also can't think of a single heavy blade, or really any non-light blade, that I think a "swashbuckler" should be using. Rapier and dagger is the shtick. Both are light blades.

I don't agree with you. I don't see the need for a duelist class. Between the fighter and the rogue, its already covered. There is already a good str/dex fighter build. The rogue already covers the straight up rapier/dagger swashbuckler. Between those two classes, hybrid classing, and multiclassing, the concept is covered.

Oct 5, 2009 -- 11:54AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

I don't agree with you. I don't see the need for a duelist class. Between the fighter and the rogue, its already covered. There is already a good str/dex fighter build. The rogue already covers the straight up rapier/dagger swashbuckler. Between those two classes, hybrid classing, and multiclassing, the concept is covered.

One could make the same argument about several other already existent classes.  Who needs paladins when a combination of cleric and fighter works about the same.  Why have swordmages when one can just combo fighter and wizard.  Who needs barbarian when and angry fighter could suffice.  Who needs an assassin when we can just play a rogue with some shadowy warlock powers.

Multiclassing and hybrid classing are great tools for realizing concepts that don't exist as an individual class, but declaring that a class concept is unnecessary only because some multiclass/hybrid combination already covers a similar concept is not a valid argument.

And besides, roberts wasn't about using sneek attacks. He ran straight into combat and challanged them. Never once did he sneek in the shadows, gang up, or truely feint to strike vital spots of the person. Infact nearly all he did was fight them until they got tired.

Granted he did manage to bluff/intimidate at the end, but you know there was a helluva lot of endurance rolls being made throughout various portions of the movie. However if a rogue tried to do what he did, they'd be taking a quick trip to the dirt inn.

And just as Bocc says, Just because you can use a jackhammer to force a square peg into a round hole, doesn't mean you had round peg.

Oct 5, 2009 -- 7:34PM, Tharag_Bocc wrote:

One could make the same argument about several other already existent classes.  Who needs paladins when a combination of cleric and fighter works about the same.  Why have swordmages when one can just combo fighter and wizard.  Who needs barbarian when and angry fighter could suffice.  Who needs an assassin when we can just play a rogue with some shadowy warlock powers.

Multiclassing and hybrid classing are great tools for realizing concepts that don't exist as an individual class, but declaring that a class concept is unnecessary only because some multiclass/hybrid combination already covers a similar concept is not a valid argument.

Emphasis mine. Word of the day, my fellows! Extant! Look it up! *inner grammar nazi trudges away sourly*

Oct 5, 2009 -- 7:34PM, Tharag_Bocc wrote:

One could make the same argument about several other already existent classes.

Oct 5, 2009 -- 9:46PM, Veok wrote:

Emphasis mine. Word of the day, my fellows! Extant! Look it up! *inner grammar nazi trudges away sourly*

Interesting, I was unfamiliar with the word "extant", but my original use of the word "existent" seems equally correct.

Yea, I don't know, I still don't think that a swashbuckler is necessary. I don't really like class bloat. If a barbarian was nothing but a fighter who got angry, I wouldn't think it was necessary. Its the extra emphasis of primal powers that has sold me on the barbarian in 4e. I suppose I am ok with the paladin because its a staple of D&D. It has been here since the earliest days. But I am not sold on the swashbuckler. In 2e it was just a kit. In 3e it was a class, but I never saw a good reason why. In 4e, there is already a paragon path named swashbuckler, and I don't see anything that a new class could offer that a rogue with that paragon path, a fighter with that paragon path, or a fighter/rogue hybrid with that paragon path, could not already mechanically cover. I also don't agree with your reading of the Dread Pirate Roberts. To me, the way Westley moved was very indicative of a rogue. He just chose to focus on athletics and acrobatics instead of stealth... and one can already do that as a rogue.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Oct 6, 2009 -- 9:11AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

Yea, I don't know, I still don't think that a swashbuckler is necessary. I don't really like class bloat. If a barbarian was nothing but a fighter who got angry, I wouldn't think it was necessary. Its the extra emphasis of primal powers that has sold me on the barbarian in 4e. I suppose I am ok with the paladin because its a staple of D&D. It has been here since the earliest days. But I am not sold on the swashbuckler. In 2e it was just a kit. In 3e it was a class, but I never saw a good reason why. In 4e, there is already a paragon path named swashbuckler, and I don't see anything that a new class could offer that a rogue with that paragon path, a fighter with that paragon path, or a fighter/rogue hybrid with that paragon path, could not already mechanically cover.

Maybe, but a similarly named/themed paragon path doesn't preclude the potential for a class any more than multiclass or hybrids do, otherwise we wouldn't have either the avenger (angelic avenger PH1) or the assassin (shadow assassin PH1 and zealous assassin PH2).  A classes name is not its concept, it's only a convenient means of labeling.

As for what the swashbuckler could bring that is unique, I envision it as a highly mobile martial defender.  The role makes it distinct  from the rogue and the mobility makes it distinct from the fighter.  In some ways it would function like a reverse avenger, instead of designating a target and doggedly pursuing it, my swashbuckler would mark the target and then lure it into precarious positioning.

Furthermore instead minoring in striker like the fighter, it would minor in leader.  As a sub-leader the swashbuckler would focus not on healing, but on buffing.  My ideal swashbuckler would be the type of class that excels at exploiting the terrain (swing from chandeliers, dropping from balconies, and sliding down banisters), and it would provided effects that encourage it's allies to do the same.  This also further distinguishes it from the rogue, as that class focuses mostly on only it's own mobility rather than the group as a whole.

I could probably achieve some, maybe even most, of this concept by using both multiclassing and hybrid to combo aerialist rogue, bravura warlord, and a dexterous fighter, but if I have to jump through that many hoops just to get close then there is likely some merit to making the concept into a distinct class.  This is my concept, and swashbuckler is merely what I find to be the best label by which to identify that concept.

Oct 6, 2009 -- 9:11AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

I also don't agree with your reading of the Dread Pirate Roberts. To me, the way Westley moved was very indicative of a rogue. He just chose to focus on athletics and acrobatics instead of stealth... and one can already do that as a rogue.

We will have to agree to disagree.

The way he moved, least in the movies, was actually based off real sword fighting. Least thats what i gathered from the special features.

And this would mean, by what your saying, every character was a rogue because they had deft foot work rather than the more spartan movements in 300.

I pretty much agree with Bocc with what he is talking about. I'd quote him, but the forums hate the community you know?

FYI: Although there was neither an Assassin Multiclass Feat nor Ki Focuses in the Assassin Articles las month, the updated Compedium and Character Builder now have them both.  Everyone can now rejoice.

Oct 6, 2009 -- 10:42AM, chanter_hound wrote:

Oct 6, 2009 -- 9:11AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

I also don't agree with your reading of the Dread Pirate Roberts. To me, the way Westley moved was very indicative of a rogue. He just chose to focus on athletics and acrobatics instead of stealth... and one can already do that as a rogue.

We will have to agree to disagree.

The way he moved, least in the movies, was actually based off real sword fighting. Least thats what i gathered from the special features.

And this would mean, by what your saying, every character was a rogue because they had deft foot work rather than the more spartan movements in 300.

No. What it would mean is that every character who moved with the footing of a swashbuckler, the sword fighting style of a swashuckler, is, in my opinion, a rogue. And yes, that is my opinion.

You are free to disagree, of course. But I do not agree with your or Bocc's opinion. I won't be heartbroken if they release a swashbuckler class in the future. But, personally, I don't see the point of creating the class. That character concept can already be created with the current RAW.

Oct 6, 2009 -- 11:19AM, quixoticat wrote:

FYI: Although there was neither an Assassin Multiclass Feat nor Ki Focuses in the Assassin Articles las month, the updated Compedium and Character Builder now have them both.  Everyone can now rejoice.

The MC is a welcome addition.  The Ki Focus entries are nothign that we already didn't know could be done with them (vanilla +1, +2, +3, etc.).

It is indeed nice that those things were added, it is a pity they missed the Shadowblade for Focused Expertise and as an item of equipment so you can equip it and get the attack bonuses right.

FYI the way to trick it is to grab a short sword, rename it to Shadow Blade, change the damage to d8, (do this as many times as needed). You can then equip it in your off-hand, and use Focused Expertise (Shortsword) to simulate Focused Expertise (Shadowblade).

Oct 7, 2009 -- 2:47AM, Cailte wrote:

It is indeed nice that those things were added, it is a pity they missed the Shadowblade for Focused Expertise and as an item of equipment so you can equip it and get the attack bonuses right.

FYI the way to trick it is to grab a short sword, rename it to Shadow Blade, change the damage to d8, (do this as many times as needed). You can then equip it in your off-hand, and use Focused Expertise (Shortsword) to simulate Focused Expertise (Shadowblade).

uhm... huh?

Oct 8, 2009 -- 7:47AM, Gadren wrote:

Oct 7, 2009 -- 2:47AM, Cailte wrote:

It is indeed nice that those things were added, it is a pity they missed the Shadowblade for Focused Expertise and as an item of equipment so you can equip it and get the attack bonuses right.

FYI the way to trick it is to grab a short sword, rename it to Shadow Blade, change the damage to d8, (do this as many times as needed). You can then equip it in your off-hand, and use Focused Expertise (Shortsword) to simulate Focused Expertise (Shadowblade).

uhm... huh?

i'm not sure what he's on about re: focused expertise for shadowblade, as theres already a FE for ki focus, but i get his complaint about no shadowblade weapon. i did the same thing, using shortsword to simulate it in CB, only with focused exp ki focus. 

Assassins can use any weapon they are proficient in as Implements - Shadowblade is a weapon they can be proficient in, and thus Focused Expertise is needed for it. The work around for that, and the absence of Shadowblade as an item you can equip, is to mess with Short Swords which do not need a feat to be equipped etc.

Also Focused Expertise (Ki Focus) doesn't do anything, as you cannot use your Ki Focus as a weapon.

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:38PM, Cailte wrote:

Assassins can use any weapon they are proficient in as Implements - Shadowblade is a weapon they can be proficient in, and thus Focused Expertise is needed for it. The work around for that, and the absence of Shadowblade as an item you can equip, is to mess with Short Swords which do not need a feat to be equipped etc.

Also Focused Expertise (Ki Focus) doesn't do anything, as you cannot use your Ki Focus as a weapon.

Still totally losing me dude.

I get taking Focused Expertise (Shadowblade). It's an "obvious" choice at higher levels.

The short sword thing makes no sense what-so-ever, though.

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:38PM, Cailte wrote:

Also Focused Expertise (Ki Focus) doesn't do anything, as you cannot use your Ki Focus as a weapon.

This has been covered. You are wrong. You can take focused expertise (ki focus). It DOES do soemthing. Any time you use a weapon, and you enhance that weapon with your ki focus instead of the weapons natural enchantments, you can use focused expertise (ki focus) to gain a bonus with attack rolls while you are using that weapon. That, it seems, is the intent behind how focused expertise and ki focus are supposed to synergize together. Continuing to rail against it isn't going to do you any good. You ARE supposed to be able to take focused expertise with your ki focus, and it DOES work.

However, I agree, the wording of ki focus and focused expertise is a little messy. It is understandable why so many people get confused as to how the power and the feat are supposed to work together.

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:52PM, Gadren wrote:

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:38PM, Cailte wrote:

Assassins can use any weapon they are proficient in as Implements - Shadowblade is a weapon they can be proficient in, and thus Focused Expertise is needed for it. The work around for that, and the absence of Shadowblade as an item you can equip, is to mess with Short Swords which do not need a feat to be equipped etc.

Also Focused Expertise (Ki Focus) doesn't do anything, as you cannot use your Ki Focus as a weapon.

Still totally losing me dude.

I get taking Focused Expertise (Shadowblade). It's an "obvious" choice at higher levels.

The short sword thing makes no sense what-so-ever, though.

The short sword thing doesn't have anything to do with the rules of D&D, and everything to do with the mechanics of the character builder. In order to "simulate" a shadowblade on your character sheet you can equip a short sword in the character builder, and then manually change its damage dice to d8.

Oct 10, 2009 -- 8:40AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:52PM, Gadren wrote:

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:38PM, Cailte wrote:

Assassins can use any weapon they are proficient in as Implements - Shadowblade is a weapon they can be proficient in, and thus Focused Expertise is needed for it. The work around for that, and the absence of Shadowblade as an item you can equip, is to mess with Short Swords which do not need a feat to be equipped etc.

Also Focused Expertise (Ki Focus) doesn't do anything, as you cannot use your Ki Focus as a weapon.

Still totally losing me dude.

I get taking Focused Expertise (Shadowblade). It's an "obvious" choice at higher levels.

The short sword thing makes no sense what-so-ever, though.

The short sword thing doesn't have anything to do with the rules of D&D, and everything to do with the mechanics of the character builder. In order to "simulate" a shadowblade on your character sheet you can equip a short sword in the character builder, and then manually change its damage dice to d8.

Ohhhh, he was talking about Character Builder. I use a mac so I wouldn't know anything about that.

But it seems to me it would be better to use a dagger and manually change the damage dice, since the dagger can be thrown like a shadowblade and a shortsword can't.

Oct 9, 2009 -- 11:38PM, Cailte wrote:

Assassins can use any weapon they are proficient in as Implements - Shadowblade is a weapon they can be proficient in, and thus Focused Expertise is needed for it. The work around for that, and the absence of Shadowblade as an item you can equip, is to mess with Short Swords which do not need a feat to be equipped etc.

P.S. No Focused Expertise (shadowblade) feat is needed. The focused expertise feats are taken in weapon groups. In order to gain focused expertise with a shadowblade, what you would take is focused expertise (light blade), because that is what a shadowblade is. You can, already, do that. What they need to do is create a "shadowblade" item for the character builder, if they haven't already...

Oct 10, 2009 -- 8:53AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

P.S. No Focused Expertise (shadowblade) feat is needed. The focused expertise feats are taken in weapon groups. In order to gain focused expertise with a shadowblade, what you would take is focused expertise (light blade), because that is what a shadowblade is. You can, already, do that. What they need to do is create a "shadowblade" item for the character builder, if they haven't already...

No, Weapon Expertise is tied to weapon groups, Focused Expertise is tied to specific weapon types.  You can take Weapon Expertise (Light Blades), but would have to take Focused Expertise (Daggers), for example.

However, you still wouldn't want to take Focused Expertise (Shadowblade) because you can't enchant your Shadowblade.  Ki Focus does not apply it's enchantment bonus to your weapon when you use it as an implement.  Only when you use your weapon as a weapon.  The Ki Focus is your implement.

Oct 10, 2009 -- 9:57AM, Ravenmancer wrote:

Oct 10, 2009 -- 8:53AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

P.S. No Focused Expertise (shadowblade) feat is needed. The focused expertise feats are taken in weapon groups. In order to gain focused expertise with a shadowblade, what you would take is focused expertise (light blade), because that is what a shadowblade is. You can, already, do that. What they need to do is create a "shadowblade" item for the character builder, if they haven't already...

 

No, Weapon Expertise is tied to weapon groups, Focused Expertise is tied to specific weapon types.  You can take Weapon Expertise (Light Blades), but would have to take Focused Expertise (Daggers), for example.

However, you still wouldn't want to take Focused Expertise (Shadowblade) because you can't enchant your Shadowblade.  Ki Focus does not apply it's enchantment bonus to your weapon when you use it as an implement.  Only when you use your weapon as a weapon.  The Ki Focus is your implement.

Oh me oh my. You are correct. I am mistaken. My bad. Terribly sorry...

Oct 10, 2009 -- 8:39AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

You ARE supposed to be able to take focused expertise with your ki focus, and it DOES work.

I would be appreciative to a link where a dev said it does work this way (or an official CS ruling).  Otherwise is just sounds like speculation based on how the CB works, which is not perfectly.

Logically, focused expertise must work with ki focus for the concept of ki focus to work. The purpose of ki focus was to make it possible for an assassin to be able to pick up any mundane item and use it on the fly. Does a situation require a dagger? The assassin can use that. Can the assassin pull in something more effective, like a great sword, to the situation? Great. An assassin can use that too! But, to make that concept work, the assassin must be able to apply the benefit of the expertise line of feats to ALL weapons with ONE feat. Otherwise, realistically, an assassin will get pegged into a single weapons just like everyone else who uses implement and weapon attacks: the weapon in which they take the focused expertise feat. For the ki focus feat ability to work ala how the devs have said they want it to work, it is necessary that a focused expertise style feat exist. And, in this very thread, a DDi dev has said that they are aware of the problems with the to-hit calculations for focused expertise (ki focus), and will be addressing them. This indicates that the existence of the feat is not a mistake, only the ways in which the feats bonus to hit is interacting with other bonuses to hit, currently, is a problem.

If you don't trust me on this you are free to wait until the next assassin article in December. But, seeing as the devs say IN THE ASSASSIN ARTICLE ITSELF that the assassin is supposed to be able to wield any weapon on the fly, and that the ki focus class ability names this as the point of that ability, I don't know how anyone could believe that the existence of a focused expertise (ki focus) feat is a mistake.

Oct 10, 2009 -- 8:39AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

This has been covered. You are wrong. You can take focused expertise (ki focus). It DOES do soemthing. Any time you use a weapon, and you enhance that weapon with your ki focus instead of the weapons natural enchantments, you can use focused expertise (ki focus) to gain a bonus with attack rolls while you are using that weapon. That, it seems, is the intent behind how focused expertise and ki focus are supposed to synergize together. Continuing to rail against it isn't going to do you any good. You ARE supposed to be able to take focused expertise with your ki focus, and it DOES work.

However, I agree, the wording of ki focus and focused expertise is a little messy. It is understandable why so many people get confused as to how the power and the feat are supposed to work together.

Please provide a reference for this rule. Ki Focus is specifically an implement, and not a weapon, it does not qualify for Focused Expertise as writen. (And no the CB doesn't count as a legitimate source - it might well be a bug.)

Oct 10, 2009 -- 8:53AM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

P.S. No Focused Expertise (shadowblade) feat is needed. The focused expertise feats are taken in weapon groups. In order to gain focused expertise with a shadowblade, what you would take is focused expertise (light blade), because that is what a shadowblade is. You can, already, do that. What they need to do is create a "shadowblade" item for the character builder, if they haven't already...

No Focused Expertise is taken by specific weapon, it then applies the bonus to your Implement and Weapon attacks with that specific weapon type.

Ki Focus is not a weapon, therefor it is not a legal target for Focused Expertise, despite what the character builder might do with it.

Oct 10, 2009 -- 7:34PM, Cyber-Dave wrote:

Logically, focused expertise must work with ki focus for the concept of ki focus to work.

I just disagree.

For the ki focus feat ability to work ala how the devs have said they want it to work, it is necessary that a focused expertise style feat exist. And, in this very thread, a DDi dev has said that they are aware of the problems with the to-hit calculations for focused expertise (ki focus), and will be addressing them. This indicates that the existence of the feat is not a mistake, only the ways in which the feats bonus to hit is interacting with other bonuses to his, currently, is a problem.

And that's the kind of reference I was looking for.  Although there is no Dev post in this thread.  There was a post by Trevor (Community lead) who is not a Dev and he didn't mention anything about FE: Ki Focus.  In fact he even called it an implement.  The article calls them implements.  That's why I was looking for a link to a post by Mearls (who wrote the class) or a CS response who presumably should check with the devs to answer the question, because without an explicit reference, they're implements and don't qualify.

If you don't trust me on this you are free to wait until the next assassin article in December. But, seeing as the devs say IN THE ASSASSIN ARTICLE ITSELF that the assassin is supposed to be able to wield any weapon on the fly, and that the ki focus class ability names this as the point of that ability, I don't know how anyone could believe that the existence of a focused expertise (ki focus) feat is a mistake.

It isn't a matter of trust.  It's that without a explicit reference, I cannot, by applying the rules we have, see that it works with Focused Expertise because every reference to Ki Foci are that they are implements and you can't take Focused Expertise for an implement.

"You can imbue your ki focus with magic as if it were a physical implement."

I believe Focused Expertise (Ki Focus) is a mistake in the CB, but I think it was implemented because that's the easiest way for them to make it work the way it's supposed to.  Just taking Implement Expertise wouldn't add to the auto calculations for weapon attacks.  It seems like a hack more than anythign else.  If they release explicit rules saying that they indeed can take FE for Ki Foci, then all well and good.  Same if a Dev has stated as such.  Until then it's just interpretation.

In a home game, none of this amounts to much because you can do/allow whatever you want.  I play primarily in the RPGA where we are expected to play by the RAW and not add in our own interpretation of the rules except where somethign is blatantly ambiguous and hasn't been addressed in a FAQ or Update.

If you are looking for a CS response, call/e-mail CS. Someone on these boards already has. I believe it was chanter_hound. He posted his responce up on the boards. CS seemed to believe that focused expertise (ki focus) was legal. But, CS responses often change depending on how you word your question to them. And, me linking chanter_hound's post really doesn't help you, as there is nothing to prove that what he posted is actually what CS said. I simply choose to take his word for it (assuming it was in fact chanter_hound that sent the e-mail, and not someone with a similar avatar pic, in which case I choose to believe them). If you are looking for a quote from Mike Mearls, I don't have one. As far as I know, he hasn't said anything about it one way or another as ofyet. Someone, I could have sworn it was in this thread, did say that they were aware of the bugs going on in regards to the way focused expertise (ki focus) is currently calculating attack bonuses in the CB. This, to me, indicates that the calculations are bugged, the existence of the feat is not a bug. But in the end, what it really boils down to, for me, is this: the feat needs to be able to work for the class feature to work as intended. I don't care if you agree or not. I don't see how anyone could see it any other way. Fact is, expertise was a pot-hole filler. The math of the game broke down at higher level (the exact tier at which the math starts to break down depends on your starting score in your primary attack stat, and how often you raise that stat). Expertise was created to fix that problem. It is, for better or worse, a necessary feat. Its not one you can skip out on. Ki focus is explicitly worded in a manner that suggests that its purpose is to allow assassins to pick up any weapon and use it on the fly. Assassins won't be able to do that if they need to have expertise in each weapon they want to use, or each weapon group plus their implement. This means, for the ki focus concept to work, there needs to be a single feat that grants you a bonus to hit with ALL powers, weapon or implement, made using your ki focus. Now, if you are playing LFR, and you need something explicitly and clearly worded, I can't help you. Unfortunately, the power is not explicitly or clearly worded. It explicilty says it is designed to allow assassins to use any weapon on the fly, but that is about it. Chances are, until the next assassin article, it won't be clarified. I'm sorry.

No, unfortantly my call to CS was wether or not Shadow Darts Crits on a single roll of 20. Though i know someone else, (The guy with the mad-eye Moody looking avatar if i recall) had sent in the email about Ki-focuses.

Currently I'm working on addressing certian issues in the CB. I've noticed that it doesn't add the ki focus bonus onto items or something.

Oct 11, 2009 -- 7:41PM, chanter_hound wrote:

No, unfortantly my call to CS was wether or not Shadow Darts Crits on a single roll of 20. Though i know someone else, (The guy with the mad-eye Moody looking avatar if i recall) had sent in the email about Ki-focuses.

Currently I'm working on addressing certian issues in the CB. I've noticed that it doesn't add the ki focus bonus onto items or something.

I'm guessing the "guy with the mad-eye Moody looking avatar" is me.

You know, what's funny is that I had no idea who the hell that guy was until I made my steampunk costume, and then everyone is like "are you Mad Eye Moody?"

"Who the **** is mad eye moody?"

"From Harry Potter!"

"Great...."

Anyways, I didn't ask CS about Ki Focus. I asked about Velvet Blade Technique.

BTW, what did CS say about one nat 20 on Shadow Darts? I assume it's a crit?

If it's any consolation, I figured your costume was a character from Girl Genius, which is Steampunk-esque

Oct 11, 2009 -- 9:14PM, Kletian999 wrote:

If it's any consolation, I figured your costume was a character from Girl Genius, which is Steampunk-esque

Yay! That is what I am from!

Well I don't know that one, but you just look kinda like it but not.

CS says that if one roll is a 20, the entire power crits. However to get each 1d8 they still have to "hit".

So if you need 15 to hit, and you roll a 20, 16, and 14, you will only get 2d8 points of max damage. As long as you don't roll like **** (As i do.) this is probally one of the best nova attacks. Before i started say "I'm totally awsome!" I was rolling a crit almost every time. As soon as i said that, boom. All three were natrual 1s. Something nearly statistically impossible :O

So I'm trying something new and building a "tower" to roll my die. Maybe i'll stop rolling below 5s on almost every roll.

(Today i rolled a 1 for my changeling trick, then a 1 for the following attack. Then a 5 for the next turns attack. Then 2.)