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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 12:46AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2008
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Channel Divinity: Bahamut has some good multiclass powers for off tanks. Like the encounter power Hand of Justice, which as an immediate reaction punishes an enemy within 10 squares who hits an ally and lets that ally spend a healing surge. And the utilities Righteous Savior and Zealous Fury. Actually all the multiclass power swaps and feats in the article are pretty off-tanky.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 1:04AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
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Might I also mention the Barbarian...
Yes, Barbarians do have defender-level hit points. However, most barbarians actually have rather low defenses. Some Barbarian abilities do look quite good in a controllerish kind of way (e.g. forcing movement, giving penalties to attacks) but they don't seem to have much that specifically penalises the target for attacking somebody other than the Barbarian. Perhaps a barbarian could work with some multiclassing or hybridisation, but I don't see much in the class (other than high hit points) that really recommends it for off-tanking.
the wonderful at-will called pressing strike that is well synergised with Polearm gamble, HBO, plus other feats such as polearm momentum and spear push
Actually, that's one thing I've forgotten to make a mention of so far - the polearm gamble spec. I'll make sure I mention it, cheers!
also you seem to have forgotten to mention the shielding swordmages aegis of shielding under abilities that reduce an ememies attacks, thought you might want to include that.
Ah - shielding swordmages do make excellent defenders, but I'll probably classify them as a "main-tank" spec, rather than an "off-tank" spec, unlike, say, assault swordmages, who tend to put a bit more of their resources into damage-dealing and thus make better backup tanks.
The Fighter daily powers "Hounding Longarm" and "Strike of the Watchful Guard" look like they're perfect for off-tanking a solo or a smaller number of enemies.
Those are both really close to what I had in mind. I'll make sure to include them!
Thanks for the suggestions, both of you.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 3:50AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
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Thanks Quanta - I've included mention of those two multiclass paths in the guide. Hmm, it's getting pretty cluttered - is there a way to tidy this up without sblocks?
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 5:37AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2004
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I'm playing an off-tank right now as a CON-lock. Started as a Hexforged, but really has morphed quite a bit. I don't mark - and honestly that has been more helpful than hurtful. Our fighter likes to mark things up like crazy and someone else's mark just gets in the way. Incidentially, that's how I play it ... I get in the way. Loading up on feats like Grim Promise, Psychic Lock (and eventually Warding Curse) work like a general-purpose dampening on enemy attacks. Then I place myself into position where I need to block the mage and sorcerer from harm. Melee Training (CON) just got trained in (RIP Reaper's Touch), so I can hit decently with the Pact Blade. I went with the Pact Blade because as the in-the-way off-tank, I'm drawing fire. My power selection is primarily focused on (a) powers that are descriminating and won't hurt the party (b) things that give me a "you don't want to hit me" capability; equipment is similar (Pact Blade). As it works out, I end up with a number of key individual deterrants (hit me and you'll take damage, if I take damage you take damage) to set up our opponents to make similar decisions as if they were marked. Then I get in their way and dare them to hit me. So far, it's amusing and it seems to work.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 7:01AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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A half-orc or eladrin or other dex-based race with the following base stats works well for Barbarians:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con or Cha of 13, Wis 14 - you advance Str/Dex, giving you top-tier AC and you qualify for all the pole-arm feats by paragon. Half-orc is great for the 18 Str, Eladrin for all the charge feats, Elf or Shifter can work reasonably well for the boost to Wisdom(and you can swap Str/Dex for the Str/Wis shifter) - with Windrise Ports and the 13 Cha, you can have Fighter(Battle Awareness) and Paladin(Soldier of Faith) Brash Strike is an effective do damage power when your defender friend has them marked. Primary strong mark tanks work really well with an off-tank that functions with mark-less attacks. Daunting Challenge + Group Defense(Half-Elf Fighter -> Paladin) Psychic Lock - good feat for mark-less attacks, especially if you have some way of combining it with a penalty to hit power. Githyanki Silver Swords as an example. White Lotus Hindrance - prevents shifts, forcing OAs if they move to attack someone else. Can be an interesting combo with a ranged Paladin who does divine challenge and a regular melee attacker who does this White Lotus Hindrance - requires an arcane melee at-will, though.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 1:01PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
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I'm playing an off-tank right now as a CON-lock. Started as a Hexforged, but really has morphed quite a bit.
I don't mark - and honestly that has been more helpful than hurtful. Our fighter likes to mark things up like crazy and someone else's mark just gets in the way.
Incidentially, that's how I play it ... I get in the way. Loading up on feats like Grim Promise, Psychic Lock (and eventually Warding Curse) work like a general-purpose dampening on enemy attacks. Then I place myself into position where I need to block the mage and sorcerer from harm. Melee Training (CON) just got trained in (RIP Reaper's Touch), so I can hit decently with the Pact Blade.
Nice.
A half-orc or eladrin or other dex-based race with the following base stats works well for Barbarians:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con or Cha of 13, Wis 14 - you advance Str/Dex, giving you top-tier AC and you qualify for all the pole-arm feats by paragon. Half-orc is great for the 18 Str, Eladrin for all the charge feats, Elf or Shifter can work reasonably well for the boost to Wisdom(and you can swap Str/Dex for the Str/Wis shifter) - with Windrise Ports and the 13 Cha, you can have Fighter(Battle Awareness) and Paladin(Soldier of Faith)
Primary strong mark tanks work really well with an off-tank that functions with mark-less attacks. Daunting Challenge + Group Defense(Half-Elf Fighter -> Paladin)
Psychic Lock - good feat for mark-less attacks, especially if you have some way of combining it with a penalty to hit power. Githyanki Silver Swords as an example.
White Lotus Hindrance - prevents shifts, forcing OAs if they move to attack someone else. Can be an interesting combo with a ranged Paladin who does divine challenge and a regular melee attacker who does this White Lotus Hindrance - requires an arcane melee at-will, though.
Cheers for the suggestions guys! Both of you refer to powers and feats such as Psychic Lock which provide a general attack-penalty. I have no doubt that it is an awesome feat (especially combined with a Githyanki Silver Weapon), and it really does boost the effectiveness of the primary defender's mark (a -2 to hit for not attacking the defender is something many enemies will be willing to swallow occasionally - but when they already have a -4 from another source, that -2 can reduce their chance to hit into the "negligible" range). However, I'm not totally sure I'd classify it as a "mark-less defending" ability; I'd probably class Psychic Lock as a controller power if anything. My reasoning is that broad to hit penalties are neutral with regards to who the enemy attacks, and thus don't really encourage them to attack the attacker back. They don't really function similarly to a mark, and crucially, they don't capitalise on the off-tank's high defenses. That's not to say they aren't awesome though, and they synergise excellently with marks. Moreover, by my admittedly strict criterion there aren't many pure defender at-wills in the game anyway (except perhaps Ardent Strike, Forbidding Strike and powers that can be used for opportunity attacks such as Virtuous and Eldritch strike) and off-tanks need to use something, so I should probably make mention of what powers, beyond those that I just mentioned, are good for an off-tank kind of build. Given that there aren't many pure defending at-wills, Brash Strike and Psychic Lock/a psychic power seem like great choices, actually. The guide is starting to get a little cluttered with its current layout. I'm surprised with how many suitable powers there are out there, to be honest! Therefore, I'm thinking I might shift all the powers (and feats) into a section of their own, perhaps split up according to class, usage (at-will, encounter, daily attack and utility). Anybody have any suggestions about the most effective/readable layout?
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 4:15PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2005
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I notice that the warlord section fails to note break the tempo which seems like a paradigmatic power for an off-tank warlord. Also of note, the pathfinder (PHB ranger paragon path) level 11 encounter and level 20 daily powers.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 7:16PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2008
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I somehow managed to play two "off-tank" characters. The first is a dwarf beastmaster ranger. With his good CON, an urgrosh, boots of the fencing master and chainmail make him fairly durable, and disruptive strike and battle awareness really punish enemies for attacking. The beast also really helps you double as a controling defender. You can use it to seal or provide flanks, but there are three things that really shine are:
- It effectively doubles your hit points
- Its AoO's are immediate actions so you can take two on your turn
- Beast Protector allows you to smack anyone who attacks it as an opportunity action (e.g. a quasi-mark)
- Distracting Companion gives your quarry -2 to attack you and your beast when you hit it (another quasi-mark)
- Serpentine Dodge can make your AC and Reflex nigh-ridiculous.
This Dwarf has stood tough in several LFR mods where we had no other defender. My second "off-tank" is a whip-wielding drow tempest fighter. The build is a low-damage high and control, although the defenses aren't great. Cloud of Darkness is an excellent power for multi-mark fighters, and darkfire, while not the most accurate, is a minor action mark from range. The basic goal is to either lock down as many opponents as possible, allowing the rest of the party to focus on one enemy. My favorite combo with these two powers is: Move into position, Cloud of Darkness, Come and Get It, Action Point, Bloodspike Sweep. You now have all enemies in a burst 3 blind, marked, and prone. The three eladrin I pulled this on were very upset they could not teleport away. The whip allows you to do two silly things: - Hand out -2's to hit in addition to a mark
- Attack from over your striker or main tanks head
In close-quarters fighting, this allows you to safely make your main tank almost unhittable. The only downside to this second build is if you play with a lot of pick-up groups. You rely on skillful positioning over brute defenses, so if you're the only defender in a group of four, it's easy to get in over your head.
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 7:20PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
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Thanks E_B. For the most part, I've been shying away from powers that punish movement only (such as the Pathfinder's Wrong Step ability), although I'm quite ambivalent about them. I'm not sure if I should include them or not. I think they are useful for defenders but aren't by themselves sufficient to qualify a character as a defender. Similarly, I've passed over the vast number of powers, that like Break the Tempo or, say, Vicious Mockery, punish or penalise an enemy for making any attack. Such powers are great, but they don't synergise in the same way with the high defenses and durability that a defender tends to have. In effect, many such powers (which I choose to class as "control" powers rather than "defender" powers) would be equally potent when used by a wizard or rogue as they would in the hands of a fighter or swordmage. Once again, I'm somewhat ambivalent on whether to include them in the guide. Defender powers or not, they are good powers and they do tend to fit thematically with the defender role. Lastly, so far I've neglected to list all the methods of applying a mark to an enemy. Marking is definitely a good tool in the off-tank's arsenal though, so perhaps I should. I guess I've got a few options with regards to each of these three categories of abilities. A) I could omit identifying specific powers entirely (and perhaps just discuss the kind of power in question and how it could be used). B) I could just list a few examples of the kind of power without trying to cover them all. C) I could list all of them briefly without going into detail on the specifics of the powers (saving my commentary for powers that are tactically more analogous to a mark). D) I could fully analyse every power of that category. It's a bit of a slippery slope as I think it's impossible to evaluate every attack/movement impairing effect across all classes in one guide. There are just too many! Perhaps they could be listed, although such a list might end up being rather large (would probably constitute about 20% of the powers in the game or something silly like that!) and without any ratings/commentary might not be particularly useful to people. I'm considering replacing my power list with a seperate class-by-class evaluation, and within each class list powers, features and feats that are relevant. With such a format it might be possible for me to go into quite some detail regarding the true mark-less defender powers, and giving a brief listing/mention of other powers such as those that grant attack penalties, cancel movement, or confer a mark upon the target. What do you think?
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4 years ago ::
Sep 08, 2009 - 8:01PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
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The first is a dwarf beastmaster ranger.
Interesting. How exactly would this translate into off-tanking in actual play? What would your basic strategy be for this character, and how do you encourage enemies to attack your beast companion, rather than your allies? That reminds me - I do need to include pet classes as potential off-tank classes. I think Abyssal Maws might have quite a bit of potential (especially if the summoner has Mark of Storm and a lightning weapon, now that I think of it!)
The whip allows you to do two silly things:
- Hand out -2's to hit in addition to a mark
- Attack from over your striker or main tanks head
Overall, your fighter sounds fairly similar to most fighters, so in that regard is fine for defending by itself or in conjunction with another defender (as long as you aren't competing for targets to mark). The whip is pretty interesting and might have applications when used on a solo that your ally has marked. Being able to provide a -2 penalty to attack that defender is good. The one thing I'd be concerned about is that you wouldn't necessarily have done anything to prevent the target from attacking your other allies, and you'd be relying upon the other defender to punish them for that. After all, if you are pretty tough (or hard to get to), and your defender ally's defenses are through the roof (and you've given the enemy a penalty to attack that guy) then the target will presumably try and attack somebody else, given half a chance. With careful positioning and the right party composition though (e.g. you and the defender both flank the target and no allies are reachable with a shift), you could lend your opportunity attacks to your buddy's in order to prevent the target from reaching your allies, and force them into that lose/lose dilemma.
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