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Magus_Stragus wrote:

Also, wings should impose a penalty to swim checks and such, isn't it?

No.

Fireclave wrote:

4e Doesn't Do Racial Penalties. Period.

Magus_Stragus]I really don't know if this' the place to ask, but, I have a question regarding Flight for a PC race.

This is an excellent place to ask.

I really don't know if this' the place to ask, but, I have a question regarding Flight for a PC race.[/quote]
This is an excellent place to ask.

Magus_Stragus]So, what if I make it an encounter power (much like Fey Step, but instead of teleport is a flight), and give the player a -2 to all defenses and attacks (well, it's hard to move well while flying). And also a paragon tier feat that eliminates this penalty and increase the use of flight. Would that be unbalanced?

Actually, 4e already has a concept like this codified in the rules. Clumsy flight (DMG pg48) actually imposes harsher conditions (-4 to attack and defenses). However, this still, by itself, is not enough to balanced flight against standard PC races in typical campaigns because the same problem are still present. Flying PC can trivialize grounded opponents and obstacles, which make up a large amount of the challenges tossed a PCs for much of the game. A -4 to attack and defenses is meaningless if you are still completely safe from harm and free to pelt foes with nigh-limitless ranged attacks.

So, what if I make it an encounter power (much like Fey Step, but instead of teleport is a flight), and give the player a -2 to all defenses and attacks (well, it's hard to move well while flying). And also a paragon tier feat that eliminates this penalty and increase the use of flight. Would that be unbalanced?[/quote]
Actually, 4e already has a concept like this codified in the rules. Clumsy flight (DMG pg48) actually imposes harsher conditions (-4 to attack and defenses). However, this still, by itself, is not enough to balanced flight against standard PC races in typical campaigns because the same problem are still present. Flying PC can trivialize grounded opponents and obstacles, which make up a large amount of the challenges tossed a PCs for much of the game. A -4 to attack and defenses is meaningless if you are still completely safe from harm and free to pelt foes with nigh-limitless ranged attacks.

Magus_Stragus]Well, if we take into account that a somewhat-strong current of wind is needed to support heavy airborne creatures, it can be ruled that a creature can't fly inside a dungeon. Maybe fall slower (like feather fall), but not fly inside a dungeon (unless of course, it's a wind-themed dungeon, or something like that )

Outside-only flight could work, but only if the majority of your adventurer encounters happen indoors. And if that is the case, we can no longer assume that your race is balanced for a "typical" campaign, where a good deal of combat can occur while traveling from place to place.

As for the feather-fall like effect, that easily could make for a balanced ability by itself. But then, we are technically no longer talking about flight.

There's also another problem with this idea. It requires the DM to keep careful track of climate and the weather to determine whether or not his players can actually fly that day, or even at all depending on the region. Just to start, exactly how much wind is a "somewhat-strong current," and how often can or should such weather occur. And if the DM's players are particular observant and able to identify inconsistencies with the weather he's using, that could be an immersion breaker for the group.

Well, if we take into account that a somewhat-strong current of wind is needed to support heavy airborne creatures, it can be ruled that a creature can't fly inside a dungeon. Maybe fall slower (like feather fall), but not fly inside a dungeon (unless of course, it's a wind-themed dungeon, or something like that )[/quote]
Outside-only flight could work, but only if the majority of your adventurer encounters happen indoors. And if that is the case, we can no longer assume that your race is balanced for a "typical" campaign, where a good deal of combat can occur while traveling from place to place.

As for the feather-fall like effect, that easily could make for a balanced ability by itself. But then, we are technically no longer talking about flight.

There's also another problem with this idea. It requires the DM to keep careful track of climate and the weather to determine whether or not his players can actually fly that day, or even at all depending on the region. Just to start, exactly how much wind is a "somewhat-strong current," and how often can or should such weather occur. And if the DM's players are particular observant and able to identify inconsistencies with the weather he's using, that could be an immersion breaker for the group.

Magus_Stragus]Also, wings should impose a penalty to swim checks and such, isn't it?

Definitely not, as that would unfairly penalized winged races with an arbitrary restriction in a attempt to enforce "realism" where it only tentatively exists anyway. Considering all the stuff adventurers tend to carry that would add to water resistance (armor, loot, bed-rolls, shields, 11ft polls, impossibly huge swords...) its a wonder why many of them don't sink like rocks. And, in a fantasy setting, it could be just as easy to assume the opposite and say that wings could aid swim checks (penguins and black dragons for example).

Also, wings should impose a penalty to swim checks and such, isn't it?[/quote]
Definitely not, as that would unfairly penalized winged races with an arbitrary restriction in a attempt to enforce "realism" where it only tentatively exists anyway. Considering all the stuff adventurers tend to carry that would add to water resistance (armor, loot, bed-rolls, shields, 11ft polls, impossibly huge swords...) its a wonder why many of them don't sink like rocks. And, in a fantasy setting, it could be just as easy to assume the opposite and say that wings could aid swim checks (penguins and black dragons for example).

Magus_Stragus]Fly as an encounter racial move power (like Fey Step). The creature gets -2 to all defences and attacks until it lands (it lands in its next turn). Paragon feats eliminate this penalty (and maybe even increase distance). Epic feats can give overland flight. To fly, good air circulation is needed (this is, only in open areas).

How about that? Would that be balanced?

To be honest, I'm not sure as it is a question I've been debated with myself for a while, and I would love an answer as well. 1-round racial encounter flight is an easy thing to balanced since it matches up with existing racial powers (Fey Step, as you mentioned), and wouldn't even warrant a clumsy flight-like unless you made it strictly better than Fey Step in some regard. And extended flight distance as a paragon feat is a good upgrade.

However, granting feat-based overland flight (I assume you mean at-will) is an different issue. As stated, flight is highly valued in 4e. That said, precedence for at-will overland flight does exist, but nothing as clear cut as a feat chain. Disregarding mounts for the moment (whose availability is entirely up to the DM), there are only two methods of granting something similiar to at-will overland flight.

The Scion of Arkhosia (PH2) gains at-will overland flight by mid-paragon, but it is (at present) a one-of-a-kind racial paragon path, which besides requiring significant invest (your paragon path choice), flight is one of the crowning abilities of the path. And to give away that ability for a mere feat, even at epic, takes something away from that path.

The other method I'm familiar with is the Carpet of Flying straight out of the PH. It effectively grants the user Clumsy Flight 6 with a 10sq max altitude (which puts the player in range of most range attacks made by ground-based foes). As a 20th level item, it is available by mid-paragon as treasure parcel loot, but players won't gain the ability to grant the themselves the item via Enchant Item effectively until epic.

In short, I think it is possible that epic-level feat based overland flight could be balanced if it's balanced against flight enablers like these. Unfortunately, I haven't had much chance to play the game, let alone at high levels, so I don't know how well my opinion would hold in actual play.

Though the main problem I have with this approach is that epic is such a long time to wait for a race's signature a wrote:

Magus_Stragus wrote:

Ok, first of all, thanks for your kind and complete answer.

Now, I'm going to be more concrete with my flying race (following your guidelines, I would only add the important features regarding the wings issue):

Major ability one: his creature ignores the first [s]20 feets 4 squares of a fall when falling. (Alternatively: This creature only takes half damage from falling)

Either of those would be fine. My only criticism is that you should measure in squares and not feet, as 1) it's standard convention, 2) it's easier and faster to read, and 3) it makes it easier on our metric using friends.

Magus_Stragus wrote:

Major ability two: This creature can use the racial power "Flight" once per encounter.

Flight

You spread wide your wings, and jump to the skies, flying a small distance that leads you to safety or a better position
Encounter
Move Action Personal
Effect: You flight up to your speed. You don't provoke [s]attacks of opportunities opportunity attack as you flight. You land as you end your movement (you must end in a legal space).

It's too powerful as a major ability, but just fine as a racial encounter power. However, I would to it that if the character cannot reach a legal square to land on, he crashes, for the usual circumstance where such a situation could occur (a bridge falling from underneath you for example).

Magus_Stragus]"too powerful as a major ability, but just fine as a racial encounter power". Didn't I do that? Make it as a racial encounter power?

You listed your flight as the second major ability:

"too powerful as a major ability, but just fine as a racial encounter power". Didn't I do that? Make it as a racial encounter power?[/quote]
You listed your flight as the second major ability:

Magus_Stragus]Major ability two: This creature can use the racial power "Flight" once per encounter.

A race's racial power is not one of their major abilities, as racial powers belong to a separate category of consideration. A race gets two [s]racial major abilities and a racial power, and one does not count as another.

So your race actually has room for one more major ability.

Major ability two: This creature can use the racial power "Flight" once per encounter.[/quote]
A race's racial power is not one of their major abilities, as racial powers belong to a separate category of consideration. A race gets two [s]racial major abilities and a racial power, and one does not count as another.

So your race actually has room for one more major ability.

Magus_Stragus]And, I used feet because the PHB uses feet when talking about falling damage.

Good point. Complaint withdrawn.

And, I used feet because the PHB uses feet when talking about falling damage.[/quote]
Good point. Complaint withdrawn.

Magus_Stragus]You don't mind I keep asking, right?

Of course not. I'm quite enjoying this ex wrote:

Fireclave wrote:

A race's racial power is not one of their major abilities, as racial powers belong to a separate category of consideration. A race gets two racial abilities and a racial power, and one does not count as another.

Oh, I was not aware of that. Thanks.

Btw, one of the abilities of the race I'm making is similar to the Gnome's Master Trickster. Is that a mayor ability, or a minor ability? I think that it's minor, as it's a weak at-will taken as an encounter power.