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Dungeons & Dra.. Homebrew Campaigns Fireclave's Guide to 4e Race Mechanic Creation
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Sticky: Fireclave's Guide to 4e Race Mechanic Creation
4 years ago  ::  May 17, 2009 - 7:25PM #11
Fireclave
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 2,146

mkill wrote:

I'd add a chapter on comparing the final race to existing races. If it is strictly better than one exisiting race, or strictly worse, you need to rethink it.


You're right. I'll be sure to add that, probably making up the bulk of a section devoted to evaluating your race's mechanics.

mkill wrote:

- feats
- paragon paths
- race-specific powers
- a deity worshipped by that race, with Channel Divinity feat
- race-specific items


I only have a handful of books (core rules + PHII + free issues of Dragon), so I don't think I could do all of these. Feats, Paragon Paths, and Deities I'm sure I could give a mention to, but I don't have many examples of race-specific powers or items. I'll still give it a shot though.

tcg_researcher]There's an odd spacing gap in the "Speed" section.
...
Section name should be "Sizes larger than Medium and smaller than Small".


Fixed and fixed.

There's an odd spacing gap in the "Speed" section.
...
Section name should be "Sizes larger than Medium and smaller than Small".[/quote]
Fixed and fixed.

tcg_researcher]I think an extra major ability, or two minor abilities, would be in order in the absence of a racial power. How would you consider the Dwarf?


Well, I haven't yet seen an official race with an extra major ability besides humans, but they're a bit unusual as far as races go.

However, I do agree that the absence of a racial power could be made up with an extra major ability. Extra minor abilities, however, wouldn't cut it as their by definition lacking in mechanical presence. Extra one would probably do no more than clutter the racial block with superfluous details.

As for the Dwarf, I rate their abilities as such:

Major Abilities: Cast Iron Stomach, Stand Your Ground
Minor Abilities: Dwarven Weapon Proficiency, Encumbered Speed
Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience

I would have Encumbered Speed as a major ability if it wasn't for the fact that Dwarves have a base speed of 5. Since it's iconic that Dwarves prefer classes that use Axes, and Hammers (and most of all AXES), Encumbered Speed at best puts them on a even level with other heavy armor users as far as speed goes. For non-heavy armored Dwarves, the ability might as well not exist.

And Dwarven Resilence is a stealth'ed in racial power. While it is technically not an racial encounter power (as it lacks the neat little color-coded chart thingy), it effectively is. Second Wind is already per encounter, but shifting down the action tax from standard to minor gives it a whole new life. Dwarves are going to be able to use Second Wind much more often and to greater effect than most other races because it doesn't slow them down.

Or, another way to look at Dwarven Resilience is as an encounter power that triggers when you use Second Wind with the effect of giving you an extra standard and move action wrote:

I think an extra major ability, or two minor abilities, would be in order in the absence of a racial power. How would you consider the Dwarf?[/quote]
Well, I haven't yet seen an official race with an extra major ability besides humans, but they're a bit unusual as far as races go.

However, I do agree that the absence of a racial power could be made up with an extra major ability. Extra minor abilities, however, wouldn't cut it as their by definition lacking in mechanical presence. Extra one would probably do no more than clutter the racial block with superfluous details.

As for the Dwarf, I rate their abilities as such:

Major Abilities: Cast Iron Stomach, Stand Your Ground
Minor Abilities: Dwarven Weapon Proficiency, Encumbered Speed
Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience

I would have Encumbered Speed as a major ability if it wasn't for the fact that Dwarves have a base speed of 5. Since it's iconic that Dwarves prefer classes that use Axes, and Hammers (and most of all AXES), Encumbered Speed at best puts them on a even level with other heavy armor users as far as speed goes. For non-heavy armored Dwarves, the ability might as well not exist.

And Dwarven Resilence is a stealth'ed in racial power. While it is technically not an racial encounter power (as it lacks the neat little color-coded chart thingy), it effectively is. Second Wind is already per encounter, but shifting down the action tax from standard to minor gives it a whole new life. Dwarves are going to be able to use Second Wind much more often and to greater effect than most other races because it doesn't slow them down.

Or, another way to look at Dwarven Resilience is as an encounter power that triggers when you use Second Wind with the effect of giving you an extra standard and move action; and that Standard action can be used with a power that's probably as or more effective than most other races' racial powers. Not too shabby overall.

tcg_researcher]Please, please keep your intended character classes in mind when selecting attribute bonuses, skill bonuses, and class features. I know that it sucks to have races "pigeon-holed" into certain builds, but not everyone can be a Human, and it sucks even more to have a nicely optimized character with one ability that's useless 90% of the time.

...

On the other hand, the Dragonborn's other bonus is in History, an INT-based skill. Let's pretend for a moment that History is worth training in, as much as any monster knowledge skill. Although the Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlord all have History on their skill lists, none of these particular builds wants to be bumping INT over DEX, and they have better skills to train in, like Athletics and Diplomacy. Odds are that someone in the party will have better INT than you, even if no one trains History. When are you going to use that 10% bonus now?

More of the first, less of the second, kthx.


I do a agree with the basic sentiment. A race's mechanics should follow a similar trend. However, I'm going to have to disagree with the extent and with this particular example. Not everything in your racial stat block needs to geared toward optimization of the race's preferred classes. The Dragonborn's bonus to History ties is very nicely with their fluff, as most "share a great pride in their race's past and present accomplishments" and since a common characteristic of Dragonborn is being "rooted in ancient history".

On the contrary, a races' skill section is one of the best places to add a bit of flavor to the race's mechanics. Racial skill bonuses indicate what things the entire race either values or has an natural affinity for. While at the same time, a +2 bonus or lack their off shouldn't be a game breaker in most builds.

There is a fine balance, and I should devote a section to that as well.

Also, Dragonborn make good Warlocks and (going by key abilities since I don't have the FRPG) Swordmages, both of whom require decent to high int and have History as class skills.

Please, please keep your intended character classes in mind when selecting attribute bonuses, skill bonuses, and class features. I know that it sucks to have races "pigeon-holed" into certain builds, but not everyone can be a Human, and it sucks even more to have a nicely optimized character with one ability that's useless 90% of the time.

...

On the other hand, the Dragonborn's other bonus is in History, an INT-based skill. Let's pretend for a moment that History is worth training in, as much as any monster knowledge skill. Although the Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlord all have History on their skill lists, none of these particular builds wants to be bumping INT over DEX, and they have better skills to train in, like Athletics and Diplomacy. Odds are that someone in the party will have better INT than you, even if no one trains History. When are you going to use that 10% bonus now?

More of the first, less of the second, kthx.[/quote]
I do a agree with the basic sentiment. A race's mechanics should follow a similar trend. However, I'm going to have to disagree with the extent and with this particular example. Not everything in your racial stat block needs to geared toward optimization of the race's preferred classes. The Dragonborn's bonus to History ties is very nicely with their fluff, as most "share a great pride in their race's past and present accomplishments" and since a common characteristic of Dragonborn is being "rooted in ancient history".

On the contrary, a races' skill section is one of the best places to add a bit of flavor to the race's mechanics. Racial skill bonuses indicate what things the entire race either values or has an natural affinity for. While at the same time, a +2 bonus or lack their off shouldn't be a game breaker in most builds.

There is a fine balance, and I should devote a section to that as well.

Also, Dragonborn make good Warlocks and (going by key abilities since I don't have the FRPG) Swordmages, both of whom require decent to high int and have History as class skills.

tcg_researcher]* Don't make racial feats, abilities, or PPs that are identical to, strictly worse than, or strictly better than core material. Not only are they not interesting, you don't want another "Expertise iz t3h brokenz!" fiasco.

* If your racial feats scale, make 'em scale. Don't make a strictly better feat at Paragon tier and treat it as a different one, because every PC will just retrain into it anyway.


These are both very good points. I'll be sure to include a section on racial wrote:

* Don't make racial feats, abilities, or PPs that are identical to, strictly worse than, or strictly better than core material. Not only are they not interesting, you don't want another "Expertise iz t3h brokenz!" fiasco.

* If your racial feats scale, make 'em scale. Don't make a strictly better feat at Paragon tier and treat it as a different one, because every PC will just retrain into it anyway.[/quote]
These are both very good points. I'll be sure to include a section on racial feats.

Thinking about creating a race for 4e?  Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
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4 years ago  ::  May 17, 2009 - 9:23PM #12
tcg_researcher
Date Joined: Apr 5, 2005
Posts: 397

Fireclave wrote:

Not everything in your racial stat block needs to geared toward optimization of the race's preferred classes. [...] On the contrary, a races' skill section is one of the best places to add a bit of flavor to the race's mechanics.


Fair 'nuff.

Would you consider a race's skill section closer to major or minor abilities in importance? (ex. the Deva Invoker's History and Religion, vs. the Genasi Warlord's Endurance and Nature)

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4 years ago  ::  May 25, 2009 - 9:55PM #13
tcg_researcher
Date Joined: Apr 5, 2005
Posts: 397
bumpity-

Keep this alive!
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4 years ago  ::  May 25, 2009 - 11:40PM #14
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,927

Fireclave wrote:

However, more narrowly focused powers do exist. The half-orc and shifter both have powers that are decidedly melee.


What?
The Half-Orc and Shifter both have powers that are useful to everybody no matter what class they are. Are we looking at the same races here? What about their racial powers are "decidedly" melee-oriented?
Half-orc gets to add extra damage regardless of melee or ranged, weapon or implement. The shifter gets a bonus to speed and reflex defense equally useful to everybody or a bonus to damage and regeneration useful to everybody. There's nothing "decidedly melee" about either of these.

No, in fact, I highly recommend adding to the list that racial powers and indeed all racial features should be useful to a character regardless of class or role. There are a couple of places where this rule is broken (such as the half-orc's heedless charge), but those are cases of bad design on the part of the developers themselves and one bad design decision does not justify another.

For instance, racial feature dealing with charging are bad because ranged characters will never benefit from it. Also, racial features depending on, say, melee basic attacks or really any basic attack at all are bad because they pigeon-hole characters into selecting weapon-using classes or else have to pick very specific powers in order to make the feature remotely useful.

Finally, and less obvious to novice race designers, racial NINWAs should target NADs instead of AC. The reason for this is the same reason implement powers target NADs. Like implement powers, NWNI power are effectively down about 2 points of attack bonus due to lacking the proficiency bonus weapons have, which is balanced out by NADs generally being about 2 points lower than AC.


Actually, I'll disagree with this. There's absolutely no problem with a racial attack power targeting AC so long as proper adjustments are made. The attack would likely gain +4 at 1st level, +6 at 11th, and +8 at 21st in order to simply mimic both weapon enchantments and proficiency bonus.

Despite being an absolutely horrifically designed racial power otherwise, the Minotaur's Goring Charge is a good example of this.

For everything else? Preach on.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago  ::  May 25, 2009 - 11:51PM #15
Fireclave
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 2,146

tcg_researcher wrote:

Would you consider a race's skill section closer to major or minor abilities in importance? (ex. the Deva Invoker's History and Religion, vs. the Genasi Warlord's Endurance and Nature)


Strictly, I would say neither. The +2 to two skills is something that almost all races receive, and those that don't get a similar skill-related bonus (such as the human's Bonus Skill). Since it's pretty much mandatory for a race to get these skill bonuses, I don't count them as either major or minor abilities.

That said, if I was to evaluate racial skill bonuses as either a major or minor ability, in most cases count it as a major ability. A race's skill bonuses tend to be closely related enough to the race's preferred classes that the bonuses would come in handy fairly often. Though preferably, I would put the skill bonuses in a category in between major and minor since an atypical class choice where either the class's key abilities or trained skills don't align with the skill bonus can greatly lower the chance that said skill bonuses will see much use.

Thinking about creating a race for 4e?  Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2009 - 3:56PM #16
Fireclave
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 2,146

Crimson_Concerto]The Half-Orc and Shifter both have powers that are useful to everybody no matter what class they are. Are we looking at the same races here? What about their racial powers are "decidedly" melee-oriented?
Half-orc gets to add extra damage regardless of melee or ranged, weapon or implement. The shifter gets a bonus to speed and reflex defense equally useful to everybody or a bonus to damage and regeneration useful to everybody. There's nothing "decidedly melee" about either of these.


I really dropped the ball here. Somehow I got it in my head that the half-orc's power only worked on a charged, and I don't know where I was going with the shifters. It must have been really late when I wrote that or something. Regardless, these grievous errors will be fixed.

The Half-Orc and Shifter both have powers that are useful to everybody no matter what class they are. Are we looking at the same races here? What about their racial powers are "decidedly" melee-oriented?
Half-orc gets to add extra damage regardless of melee or ranged, weapon or implement. The shifter gets a bonus to speed and reflex defense equally useful to everybody or a bonus to damage and regeneration useful to everybody. There's nothing "decidedly melee" about either of these.[/quote]
I really dropped the ball here. Somehow I got it in my head that the half-orc's power only worked on a charged, and I don't know where I was going with the shifters. It must have been really late when I wrote that or something. Regardless, these grievous errors will be fixed.

Crimson_Concerto]I'll disagree with this. There's absolutely no problem with a racial attack power targeting AC so long as proper adjustments are made. The attack would likely gain +4 at 1st level, +6 at 11th, and +8 at 21st in order to simply mimic both weapon enchantments and proficiency bonus.

Despite being an absolutely horrifically designed racial power otherwise, the Minotaur's Goring Charge is a good example of this.


Point wrote:

I'll disagree with this. There's absolutely no problem with a racial attack power targeting AC so long as proper adjustments are made. The attack would likely gain +4 at 1st level, +6 at 11th, and +8 at 21st in order to simply mimic both weapon enchantments and proficiency bonus.

Despite being an absolutely horrifically designed racial power otherwise, the Minotaur's Goring Charge is a good example of this.[/quote]
Point taken.

Thinking about creating a race for 4e?  Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 06, 2009 - 7:49PM #17
Aluman
Date Joined: May 21, 2008
Posts: 2,081
Sticky requested.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2009 - 2:12PM #18
Magus_Stragus
Date Joined: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 196
I really don't know if this' the place to ask, but, I have a question regarding Flight for a PC race. So, what if I make it an encounter power (much like Fey Step, but instead of teleport is a flight), and give the player a -2 to all defenses and attacks (well, it's hard to move well while flying). And also a paragon tier feat that eliminates this penalty and increase the use of flight. Would that be unbalanced?
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2009 - 6:06PM #19
malcolm_n
Date Joined: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 333
That's not a horrible option, but you'd have to limit it somehow, like to 2 squares up. Otherwise, your race could circumvent a lot of ground-based traps or pits, etc.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2009 - 6:37PM #20
Magus_Stragus
Date Joined: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 196
Well, if we take into account that a somewhat-strong current of wind is needed to support heavy airborne creatures, it can be ruled that a creature can't fly inside a dungeon. Maybe fall slower (like feather fall), but not fly inside a dungeon (unless of course, it's a wind-themed dungeon, or something like that :P )

Also, wings should impose a penalty to swim checks and such, isn't it?

So, in short:

Fly as an encounter racial move power (like Fey Step). The creature gets -2 to all defences and attacks until it lands (it lands in its next turn). Paragon feats eliminate this penalty (and maybe even increase distance). Epic feats can give overland flight. To fly, good air circulation is needed (this is, only in open areas).

How about that? Would that be balanced?
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