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Dungeons & Dra.. Homebrew Campaigns Fireclave's Guide to 4e Race Mechanic Creation
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 7:15PM #101
The_Silversword
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2009
Posts: 13,403

Crimson_Concerto wrote:

Fireclave, why is there nothing in your guide about avoiding natural weapons at all cost? Because it seems like every other homebrew race wants to have natural weapons in the form of at-will attack powers or an unarmed attack enhancement even though they're completely inappropriate...


So what are you saying? that minotaurs shouldnt have horns?, i mean if a race has claws or hooves or horns or what ever they should be able to do something with that a little better than 1d4 unarmed i mean really whats wrong with natural weapons?

I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig


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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 7:42PM #102
Magus_Stragus
Date Joined: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 196
Crimson Concerto doesn't like natural weapons because in 4e races are supposed to do fairly good in any class they pick, and a natural weapon would be then a worthless racial feature to many non-melee classes. Or so I think.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 7:48PM #103
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,967

Fireclave wrote:

Perhaps is my personal bias speaking but I like the idea of races having natural weapons or natural weapon-theme abilities and powers.


Natural weapon themed abilities and powers are fine, but it's possible for them to be done in a way that's not overpowered, not completely useless, not completely nonsensical, and not totally contrary to the game's racial design goals.

That is assuming, of course, that racial weapons are done in a manner that's both balanced and thematically appropriate; just like any other racial feature.


That's the problem. The vast majority of the time they're done, they're not balance, and they're not thematically appropriate.

At-will attack powers are a terrible idea. If they're standard action attack powers, they become just as bad as the current Minotaur racial encounter power, channeling the race into a melee class and role or else have a useless racial power because your standard action is supposed to be what you use in order to fulfill your class and party role. If they're at-will minor action attack powers, then that's just overpowered.

As for unarmed attack improvement, etc., they're usually completely useless because they can't be enchanted like other weapons can, and somebody allows unarmed attacks to be enchanted, then it's still inappropriate because it again becomes the kind of racial benefit like the Half-Orc's Swift Charge that's great for melee weapon classes and roles but completely useless to everybody else, and that's bad design.

And then of course you run into logical inconsistencies with existing races. Why exactly do you get an better unarmed attack than a Razor-Claw Shifter? Why do you get an at-will attack power when the Minotaur and his powerful horns do not? Why are your teeth significant enough for mechanical representation when the Dragonborn get nothing for their obviously superior dentures?

This doesn't all mean that natural attacks can't be done. It just means that at-will attack powers and unarmed attack enhancements are an inappropriate way to do them. A minor action encounter attack power should be more than plenty. Anything more than that should be accomplished via feats or some other method that doesn't require a character to have completely useless racial features or powers.

The_Silversword wrote:

So what are you saying? that minotaurs shouldnt have horns?


Absolutely not. Check my sig to see that I very much want Minotaur to keep their horns and a reasonable way to use them. However, an unarmed attack enhancement isn't the appropriate way to do it, an at-will attack power isn't the appropriate way to do it, and a standard action encounter power isn't the appropriate way to do it.

i mean if a race has claws or hooves or horns or what ever they should be able to do something with that a little better than 1d4 unarmed i mean really whats wrong with natural weapons?


I've explained that above. Nothing wrong with it per se, but there is definitely something wrong with a lot of the consequences. Make your superior unarmed attacks a racial feat instead of a base part of the race, and it's all golden. That way it's not dead weight to characters that can't at all make use of it. Problem solved.
Either that or make it a minor action encounter power.

Magus_Stragus wrote:

Crimson Concerto doesn't like natural weapons because in 4e races are supposed to do fairly good in any class they pick, and a natural weapon would be then a worthless racial feature to many non-melee classes. Or so I think.


That's the simple version, yes.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 8:42PM #104
ShadowGuard
Date Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Posts: 331
I think I have seen this idea on the boards before but I like the idea of a multi-class feat like the Blowgun training or Bola training to handle fighting with claws. It would be called “Claw Fighting” or something and be a feat that clawed races could take, like Razor-claw Shifters, Gnolls, or Lizardfolks. The initial feat would stat out the claws as weapons and later feats would represent cool claw fighting powers that you could incorporate into your character like the pre mentioned multi-class feats.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 9:57PM #105
The_Silversword
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2009
Posts: 13,403
Right i see what you're saying Crimson Concerto. Natural weapons would be kinda usless especially after you get a +5 bastard sword or whatever, but still it could come in handy if you lose your sword for whatever reason. I really want claws on the race and i want some game mechanic in there to reflect that. If it proves to be pretty much usless in most circumstances thats fine by me al long as im not over powering the race. Of course i dont want to lay a bunch of useless powers/abilities on them either.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig


Off-topic and going downhill from there
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 10:01PM #106
The_Silversword
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2009
Posts: 13,403

ShadowGuard wrote:

I think I have seen this idea on the boards before but I like the idea of a multi-class feat like the Blowgun training or Bola training to handle fighting with claws.


That does sound kinda cool ShadowGuard but im not sure about the multi-class bit. Im not exactly crazy over the Multi Class rules. Really kinda limits you. No more thief/fighter /magic-user, but i guess that was the point.

I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig


Off-topic and going downhill from there
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 10:39PM #107
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,967

The_Silversword wrote:

No more thief/fighter /magic-user


This is in zero ways true. There are multiple ways to make a thief/fighter/magic-user. What are you talking about?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 10:49PM #108
Fireclave
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 2,148

Crimson_Concert]At-will attack powers are a terrible idea. If they're standard action attack powers, they become just as bad as the current Minotaur racial encounter power, channeling the race into a melee class and role or else have a useless racial power because your standard action is supposed to be what you use in order to fulfill your class and party role. If they're at-will minor action attack powers, then that's just overpowered.


For the most part I agree with this. An at-will natural attack power as part of a race's stat block would definitely not be the way to go (but see below*).

At-will attack powers are a terrible idea. If they're standard action attack powers, they become just as bad as the current Minotaur racial encounter power, channeling the race into a melee class and role or else have a useless racial power because your standard action is supposed to be what you use in order to fulfill your class and party role. If they're at-will minor action attack powers, then that's just overpowered.[/quote]
For the most part I agree with this. An at-will natural attack power as part of a race's stat block would definitely not be the way to go (but see below*).

Crimson_Concert]As for unarmed attack improvement, etc., they're usually completely useless because they can't be enchanted like other weapons can, and somebody allows unarmed attacks to be enchanted, then it's still inappropriate because it again becomes the kind of racial benefit like the Half-Orc's Swift Charge that's great for melee weapon classes and roles but completely useless to everybody else, and that's bad design.


But disagree with this. I think unarmed attack improvements are a good way of implementing natural weapons.

First, I see no reason why natural weapons can't be enchanted. I don't have a DDi account, but from what I hear, monks' unarmed strikes can be enchanted. I see no reason why other natural weapons cannot.

As for the universal usability issue, the answer to that is simple. Make natural weapons a racial feat instead of a default racial feature. Melee oriented members of the race can choose take it while non-melee members can take other feats.

This is, in fact, the approach I intend to take with a couple of my own races. I figure it will work if I make natural weapons a feat, and make said feat equivalent to a Superior Weapon feat so that in either case you're spending a feat to access to a new weapon that's worth the investment. And aside from the base cost of a manufactured weapon, they will cost the same as well.

*Though technically, with this approach, you are making natural weapons an at-will power. At the very least, your melee basic attack becomes a natural weapon attack, and if you're a melee character with melee at wills...

As for unarmed attack improvement, etc., they're usually completely useless because they can't be enchanted like other weapons can, and somebody allows unarmed attacks to be enchanted, then it's still inappropriate because it again becomes the kind of racial benefit like the Half-Orc's Swift Charge that's great for melee weapon classes and roles but completely useless to everybody else, and that's bad design.[/quote]
But disagree with this. I think unarmed attack improvements are a good way of implementing natural weapons.

First, I see no reason why natural weapons can't be enchanted. I don't have a DDi account, but from what I hear, monks' unarmed strikes can be enchanted. I see no reason why other natural weapons cannot.

As for the universal usability issue, the answer to that is simple. Make natural weapons a racial feat instead of a default racial feature. Melee oriented members of the race can choose take it while non-melee members can take other feats.

This is, in fact, the approach I intend to take with a couple of my own races. I figure it will work if I make natural weapons a feat, and make said feat equivalent to a Superior Weapon feat so that in either case you're spending a feat to access to a new weapon that's worth the investment. And aside from the base cost of a manufactured weapon, they will cost the same as well.

*Though technically, with this approach, you are making natural weapons an at-will power. At the very least, your melee basic attack becomes a natural weapon attack, and if you're a melee character with melee at wills...

And then of course you run into logical inconsistencies with existing races. Why exactly do you get an better unarmed attack than a Razor-Claw Shifter? Why do you get an at-will attack power when the Minotaur and his powerful horns do not? Why are your teeth significant enough for mechanical representation when the Dragonborn get nothing for their obviously superior dentures?


Such inconsistencies are a matter of flavor and willing to suspend disbelief. The simplest answer for why a race's claws are sharper than a Razor-Claw Shifter's or bites stronger than a Dragonborn's is because they simply are. Race's X claws really are sharper, stronger, and, perhaps most importantly, made of something that can endure repeated use as a weaponthat will be utilized against anything from as weak as flesh and as tough as metal without threat of causing self injury. A creature with a weaponized bite might not only have chomps strong enough to crunch through metal on a daily basis, but jaw muscles like a croc to exert enormous pressure for their size and perhaps their teeth replace themselves regularly like a sharks.

A second simple explanation is that they had to hone their existing appendages through training in order weaponize them, much in the same way monks have to hone their unarmed strikes. The amount of training my be reduced due to their natural appendages being almost tough enough to see serious combat use, but additional training is needed all the same.

You could always say that Race X's natural weapon are inherently magical. Plenty of critters in 3e had innately magical natural weapons for the purpose of defeating damage reduction. It's a simple matter of applying the same concept here, but instead of being magic enough to defeat DR, they're magic enough to be used as a weapon.

Or you could always suspend disbelief and simply ignore the flavor issue. Race X has a natural weapon because its cool; Dragonborn don't because they already have plenty of abilities as is and don't need any more.

But the exact explanation, along with addressing or ignoring whatever inconsistencies or breaks in verisimilitude crop up, is the responsibility of the race's creator (though such logical inconsistency need not exist at all if you let other theme-appropriate races acquire natural weapons as well).

Thinking about creating a race for 4e?  Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 10:54PM #109
Yaou
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2009
Posts: 249
I'd like some feedback on two Racial Powers I'm fiddling around with now, if that wouldn't be too much trouble.  Here's the first (Race Names replaced with ~ for now):

~ Mobility
~ Racial Power

You dance around your opponent, harrying your foe while you press your attack.
Encounter – Martial
Immediate Reaction
Personal
Trigger:
  You deal damage to an opponent
Effect:  You shift 1 square in any direction and gain a +2 bonus to Attack rolls made against the opponent you just damaged until the end of your next turn.  This bonus increases to +4 at 11th level and +6 at 21st level.

And the second:


Flight of Fancy
~ Racial Power
Leaping into the air to shake off a foe, you come down a short distance away and shrug off a debilitating effect.
Encounter
Move Action
Personal
Effect:
  You can fly up to 3 squares before the end of your next turn.  Make a saving throw at the end of that movement.

I was debating whether or not to add "This movement does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity".  Thoughts?

I think they seem pretty balanced and useful for most classes, but I'd like some second opinions.
I love power. But it is as an artist that I love it. I love it as a musician loves his violin, to draw out its sounds and chords and harmonies... - Napoleon Bonaparte
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2009 - 11:41PM #110
The_Silversword
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2009
Posts: 13,403

Crimson_Concerto wrote:

This is in zero ways true. There are multiple ways to make a thief/fighter/magic-user. What are you talking about?


The multi-class feat limits you to one class. Unless you are a bard. What are you talkin about?

I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig


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