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Dungeons & Dra.. Homebrew Campaigns Fireclave's Guide to 4e Race Mechanic Creation
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2009 - 11:35PM #61
LuciferNietzsche
  • Stampeding Hybrid
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2005
Posts: 1,040
Have Gnolls been in a DDI article like minotaurs and warforged? If they're still strictly an MM write-up, doesn't it not matter at all that abyssal is one of their starting languages?

By the way, good work, Fireclave. If there isn't one of these for class creation yet, there should be...because many homebrew classes are in dire need of being set straight.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2009 - 9:08AM #62
Vebrandsson
  • Stampeding Hybrid
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Dec 12, 2008
Posts: 883
Yes gnolls were in a ddi article some time back towards the beginning (during the free trail period if I'm not mistaken). And many people like crimson think that they were terribly done, which I can agree with to some extent. Its off topic but the link to the article is here
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2009 - 9:25PM #63
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,930

Vebrandsson wrote:

Yes gnolls were in a ddi article some time back towards the beginning (during the free trail period if I'm not mistaken). And many people like crimson think that they were terribly done, which I can agree with to some extent.


Sure, if by "think" you mean "know", "realize", "notice", or "understand". :P

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2009 - 10:35PM #64
ShadowGuard
Date Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Posts: 331
I have a question. How would the currently published and DDI races stack up against the rules of this guide or just balance in general? I am guessing that Gnolls and Minotaurs are on the low end, but which race is a good standard for balance?


PS: How do you do that card effect for racial powers Fireclave?
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2009 - 12:13AM #65
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,930

ShadowGuard wrote:

I have a question. How would the currently published and DDI races stack up against the rules of this guide or just balance in general? I am guessing that Gnolls and Minotaurs are on the low end, but which race is a good standard for balance?


Hmm, well let's see... In order of how well they're designed from best to worst, here's my analysis...

Deva, Drow, Goliath, Human, Shifter, and Warforged are perfect!
Eladrin and Elf are really high up there too.
And If it weren't for Small size being terribly handled, Halfling would perfect as well. I would say the same of Gnome, but the fact that Master Trickster is completely useless to Wizards rubs me the wrong way.

I have a personal issue with Dwarves and the fact that Encumbered Speed really is practically useless to half of the classes out there, but I don't think I can really legitimately complain about anything other than the tradition here, so I usually let this slide when I discuss poor racial design in the existing races. It's the same reason I generally let racial weapon proficiencies slide too (which are why Eladrin and Elf are up there but not quite perfect). Therefore, letting Encumbered Speed slide, Dwarf is up there with Eladrin and Elf.
I definitely wouldn't let a thing like Encumbered Speed slide for any homebrew races, though.

I dislike that Tieflings are only given a single option for the ability score they use to deal extra damage with their racial power, because I feel like it's just too limiting, so I let players pick between CON, INT, and CHA for that one.
Dragonborn are great except for requiring a CON investment to make Draconic Heritage useful. I let my players take a minimum +1 bonus on that so they still get a benefit even if it's illogical for their build or their character to invest in CON.
I put Tiefling above Dragonborn though because at least Tiefling will always get that +1 bonus to hit from their racial power even if they have no CHA modifier to add damage with.

I just dislike that the Changeling and most Genasi get defense bonuses that are completely unnecessary. My problem with this really is just that I feel like somebody took the easy way out by giving them a boring, unoriginal feature instead of something that would be interesting and unique. Same thing with the upcoming PHB3 Wilden, come to think of it...

On the flip side, Kalashtar are completely missing their racial defense bonus for being a WIS/CHA race, so I'll put them here.

(EDIT: Just to be clear, this is where I'm going to set the line for acceptably well done to unacceptably poorly done.)

I don't think Half-Elf's Dilettante was very well thought out because of how it doesn't allow you to use implements associated with the class you got the power from. To compensate, I allow players of mine who select the race a +2 enhancement bonus per tier to their Dilettante power. This won't stack with weapon or implement enhancements, of course, but if it requires something totally outside what you're class it allowed, you're not totally screwed.

Getting back on the topic of the Genasi, though, I have a particular bone to pick with the Storm ones because their racial power is completely useless unless you specifically select certain class powers or weapons. Really, a level 1 Genasi Tactical Warlord should be a great option, but being completely unable to use your racial power is a total downer.

I absolutely despise the Half-Orc's Swift Charge. Who the heck decided it would be a good idea to give these guys a feature useful for only about a third of the classes out there and almost completely useless to the rest? This was a terrible decision. I let my players have it if they want, but I also give them the option of getting one of their racial feats for free instead: Anger Unleashed, Savage Assault, or Thirst for Battle.
And of course the Gnoll and Minotaur have this same problem just a lot worse, so they're the bottom of the barrel, with Gnoll being slightly more acceptable than Minotaur because it at least has one or two things it can do without being required to be a member of a melee weapon class.

(EDIT: Though really if we do decide to take into account how badly handled Small size was, then I'm actually going to have to put Halfling and Gnome at the bottom for getting racial penalties. I remove the Small size weapon restrictions and limitations from my games, which is why I have them rated up there, but really, playing RAW, at least a Half-Orc, Gnoll, or Minotaur who decides to play against type isn't specifically penalized for it.)

I don't actually know where to put Revenant because I just don't understand them.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2009 - 7:39AM #66
Magus_Stragus
Date Joined: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 196

ShadowGuard wrote:

PS: How do you do that card effect for racial powers Fireclave?


You can quote his post and see how it is done. (Use the deck tag [,deck,] (without the commas))

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2009 - 10:49AM #67
Fireclave
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 2,146

PS: How do you do that card effect for racial powers Fireclave?


Exactly like this:

[noparse]name goes here
Text goes here[/noparse]

The result is:

name goes here
Text goes here

Thinking about creating a race for 4e?  Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2009 - 4:50PM #68
ShadowGuard
Date Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Posts: 331
@ Crimson_Concerto: Thanks so much for answering my question. It really helps gain perspective on what to look at as an example for good design.

@ Magus_Stragus and Fireclave: Thanks for answering the question. This should help make my future homebrew races that much cleaner.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2009 - 8:46PM #69
Magus_Stragus
Date Joined: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 196
Btw, why the shifters are perfect, if they have only one racial feature (the racial power)? Is that power enough to balance them with the other races?
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2009 - 9:37PM #70
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,930

Magus_Stragus wrote:

Btw, why the shifters are perfect, if they have only one racial feature (the racial power)? Is that power enough to balance them with the other races?


Yup. Notice that unlike most other racial powers, the Shifter racial power lasts all encounter long once they use it. May not be the most exciting race when it comes to the mechanics, but it is perfectly balanced and perfectly well designed.
Do note that my list has nothing to do with whether or not I like a race or thing it's cool or exciting. Half-Orc Minotaur are actually some of my favorites, and I care next to nothing about Goliath or Drow.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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