Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 1 of 8  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Two birds with one stone: Magic Items and Weapon Expertise
4 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2009 - 8:51PM #1
Igfig
Date Joined: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 314

The two birds, in this case, are "making magic items more special" and "that bloody Weapon Expertise feat".  My idea is extremely simple, but at the same time devilishly clever, if I may say so myself (I'm pretty arrogant): swap the sources of the bonuses.
 


The "One Stone" System


Feats' bonuses to attack rolls or defenses no longer scale with level.
  • e.g. Iron Will grants a +2 feat bonus to Will.
  • e.g. Light Blade Expertise grants a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls and a scaling bonus to damage rolls.

Each PC gets a cumulative +1 mastery bonus to all attacks, damage, and defenses every five levels or so, to a maximum of +6.  There are two ways to distribute this bonus:
  1. As a reward to a PC who completes a minor quest of great personal significance.  This could be anything from a journey to a monastery to train with a martial arts master to an attempt to reconcile with an estranged daughter.  Anything that shows the PC has something to be fighting for.  This is the recommended method.
  2. As an automatic bonus every fifth level.  I'd suggest 5, 10, 15... , but your mileage may vary.
  3. A compromise: as 1, but your bonus increases automatically at levels 6, 11, 16... if you haven't increased it with a quest in the last five levels.

Magic weapons, implements, ki foci, armour, neck slot items, augmenting whetstones, and all other items that grant a scaling enhancement bonus grant a +1 enhancement bonus every 10 levels instead of every 5.

Masterwork light armour no longer exists. Masterwork heavy armour now follows this table:                                                             
Armor Name AC Bonus Enhancement Bonus Special
Crysteel +7 +2 +2 Will
Forgemail +8 +2
Pitmail +9 +3 +2 Will
Spiritmail +10 +3
Stormscale +8 +2 +2 Fortitude
Wyrmscale +9 +2
Titanscale +10 +3 +2 Fortitude
Elderscale +11 +3
Specter plate +9 +2 Resist 2 all
Warplate +10 +2
Tarrasque plate +11 +3 Resist 5 all
Godplate +12 +3


All effects that depend on an item's enhancement bonus, including but not limited to item level and price, crit dice, and many properties, instead depend on twice its enhancement bonus.                               
  • e.g. a +1 Magic weapon is a level 6 item, costs 1800 gp, and deals +2d6 damage on a crit.
  • e.g. a +3 Staff of Time is a legal level 30 item that costs 3,125,000 gp and deals +6d12 damage on a crit.
  • e.g. Acrobat Boots are still a level 2 item costing 520 gp, because they don't grant an enhancement bonus.

 The party receives 1.5 fewer items each level from treasure.

Special Exceptions


Artifact enhancement bonuses are halved and rounded down. Effects that depend on their enhancement bonus instead depend on their original enhancement bonus.  Many artifacts may need to be managed on a case-by-case basis.

  • e.g. a fully assembled Rod of Seven Parts is a +3 rod that deals +7d6 damage on a crit and grants a +7 item bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Religion checks.
  • e.g. the Axe of the Dwarven Lords is a +2 battleaxe that deals +5d6 damage on a crit.  When it is pleased, it becomes a regular +3 battleaxe; when it is angered it becomes a regular +2 battleaxe.
  • e.g. the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd is +1 chainmail.  When it is unsatisfied or angered, it becomes +0.

 Attack powers that lack the weapon or implement keyword and grant a scaling bonus to attack rolls, such as Dragon Breath and Darkfire, reduce the bonus they grant by a cumulative 2 per tier.                               
  • e.g. the attack line for the duergar's Infernal Quills power is now simply "Constitution vs. AC".
  • e.g. the attack line for the drow's Darkfire power is now "Intelligence+2, Wisdom+2, or Charisma+2 vs. Reflex".
  • e.g. the attack line for the Minotaur Horned Champion's Driving Gore power is now "Strength+2 vs. AC".

 Certain items, including most alchemical items, use a flat number to determine their attack bonus, rather than depending on the ability of the user.  Mastery bonuses do not apply to this attack.                               
  • e.g. Mindiron Vambraces' daily power is +11 vs. Will / +21 vs. Will / +31 vs. Will, regardless of who is using it.

 If an item grants an item bonus to damage, halve that bonus.  In other words, an item bonus to damage is equal to the item's (effective) enhancement bonus, instead of twice that value.                               
  • e.g. a +2 Staff of Ruin is a level 18 item that grants a +2 item bonus to damage and deals +4d10 damage on a crit.
  • e.g. Iron Armbands of Power grant a +1 item bonus at level 6, a +2 item bonus at level 16, and a +3 item bonus at level 26.

Discussion


See, the math of the game assume that you'll get, on average, +1 to attacks and defenses each level.  That's 29 increases between level 1 and level 30.  In the standard system, they're divided as follows:

  • +15 from the usual 1/2 level bonus
  • +4 from ability increases (or masterwork armour, if you wear the heavy stuff)
  • +6 from enhancement bonuses
  • +3 from feats (or masterwork armour)
  • +1 from miscellaneous sources, like item bonuses or paragon path features.

In my system the final sum is the same, but the breakdown looks like:

  • +15 from the usual 1/2 level bonus
  • +4 from ability increases (or masterwork armour, if you wear the heavy stuff)
  • +6 from mastery bonuses
  • +3 from enhancement bonuses
  • +1 from miscellaneous sources, like item bonuses or paragon path features.

This simple change has many interesting consequences.


A long-needed fix


The first of these is that Weapon Expertise and its associated feats are now utterly unnecessary and can be disposed of in the nearest suitable location, such as a volcano or the depths of outer space. 


This also applies to the Paragon and Robust Defenses feats, as well as certain aspects of the masterwork system.  While I will refer mostly to weapons in the following paragraphs, please note that everything I say applies equally to armour, amulets, and other enhancement-granting items.

Update: Since Essentials expertise feats are actually pretty good (albeit overpowered), I've allowed them to return in a more balanced form.  They're still better than most feats, but they're not (quite) mandatory any more.


Magic items are more special


The most important consequence in my opinion (after the removal of Weapon Expertise, anyway), is the reason I originally thought up this rule: to detrivialize magic items. I mean, despite the designers' original assurances that 4e would reduce the "Christmas Tree Effect" and make magic items neat again, things haven't changed much at all.  Indeed, magic items are even more vital, and thus even more pedestrian, than before: without that +6 to attacks at high epic, you might as well be swinging an enormous stuffed kangaroo for all the hitting you won't be doing.


Now, however, you'll only need new gear every ten levels.That +1 sword you found in your first adventure will be sticking around for a good long while. You might even start to feel some attachment to it. And when you get that +2 dancing longsword, well, I bet that'll be even more exciting.


Magic Items are less vital


Interestingly, despite the increased relevance of magic items, it's still possible to go without one for a while and still be effective. After all, it's only a three-point difference at most, and we were all able to survive without that (albeit at reduced capacity) before Weapon Expertise. Now you can actually take away the PCs' items briefly, trusting that they'll still be able to fight their way out of prison with the knife they nicked off of that careless guard. Best of all, you can make Page 42 attacks and not feel like you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to do something interesting!


Fewer items in treasure parcels


Since there are now fewer items available overall, PCs won't need to replace their items as often: once a tier, rather than twice a tier.  To make up for this, I suggest removing 1.5 item parcels from the treasure the PCs find each level.  That is, remove two items at even levels, one item at odds.  This is a little awkward, and for that I apologize.


On the other hand, now that you have fewer treasure parcels to dole out, you can spend more time hand-placing each one. It won't be "Okay, you killed the remorhaz; you find 750 pp and a level 23 magic item", but rather "Okay, you killed the remorhaz; YOU FIND NOTHING BECAUSE IT'S AN UNINTELLIGENT NOMADIC GIANT CATERPILLAR. Maybe you'll find something next level." (Okay, bad example.)


Small quibbles


There are a few downsides to my idea, mind you, mostly of the 'extra work' variety.  Luckily I've done most of that extra work for you already.


Masterwork light armour provided that +3 bonus normally granted by feats, so it had to go.  Masterwork heavy armour is a stranger beast, though: not only did it grant that +3, it also provided the AC bonus normally granted by a high Dex or Int score.  That's still there, so masterwork heavy armour has been modified appropriately.
Many innate powers that don't use weapons or implements needed changing.  Dragon Breath, for instance, had an attack line of "Con+2/+4/+6 vs. Reflex".  These extra plusses were to make up for the fact that it didn't get that +6 enhancement bonus.  Now, though, everybody gets that +6 bonus for free on every attack; thus, innate attacks should be normalized to a flat "Con vs. Reflex".

Some innate powers, like Darkfire, grant bigger bonuses: Cha+4/+6/+8 in this case.  These should become Cha+2, to reflect how they stay 2 points above the baseline.

Innate powers received at level 20, say from a paragon path, should be counted as belonging to the Epic tier.  After all, you'll be spending 91% of your time with that power (10 out of 11 levels) as an Epic character.

Artifacts are a little weird.  They already come with a built-in scaling mechanism: you find them with a bonus appropriate to your level; you level up and it goes up a plus; then you level up again and it disappears. Unfortunately, this is a little too granular for my system to handle easily, since it doesn't usually differentiate between a high-paragon and a low-paragon item.

The fix I came up with--letting artifacts sit between bonuses--works okay I think, as long as you only apply it to artifacts.  Don't use it on normal items.  It's okay for artifacts to come in a wider range of power levels, because artifacts cost nothing, arrive unbidden, and leave the same way.  Allowing half-bonus regular items means that magic items will need to be replaced every 5 levels (ever half-bonus) rather than every 10 levels, wjich completely invalidates the whole "Magic Items are more special" concept.

The Weapon Focus feats haven't been removed, so a character built under this system will deal 3 more damage with each attack than a standard character.  Item bonuses to damage have been reduced to compensate.  This is a good thing, since Iron Armbands of Power and similar items will no longer be a must-have... or in other words, an item tax.

Campaign tone


I should note that this system isn't appropriate for all campaigns.


If your campaign is a kick-in-the-door dungeon crawl, where the only goals are to fight more monsters and get more stuff, you should probably stick with the original system.  The same holds in any other campaign where your items are a defining part of your character: some kind of fantasy-mecha hybrid, say.


On the other hand, if your campaign is a gritty, low-magic one where colourful tricks are no match for three feet of cold steel, you might prefer a system with no enhancement bonuses at all.  I've seen a few around these boards, and most of them aren't bad.  Some are definitely worth a look.*


However. If your campaign takes place somewhere between those extremes, in the genres known as high and heroic fantasy, my system might be just the thing for you.  Give it a go.


A word of warning


Now, I'm sure there are some of you who are reading this and saying, "Hey, this guy has some pretty good ideas... but I think I could make it better by changing this one thing here."  First of all: No, I'm fairly sure you can't.  Second of all, DON'T CHANGE THE SYSTEM.  The math of the system is very carefully balanced, and if you go mucking around in it without knowing what you're doing you could mess it up colossally. 


Don't put Weapon Expertise back in "because you're nerfed without it."


Don't put the enhancement bonus cap back to +6 "to make weapons more epic." 


Don't cap enhancement bonuses at +1 or +0 "to make the characters stand out more."


Don't change the levels at which you gain your mastery bonuses... actually nah, this one's okay.  You can do this if you like.


Okay, so I'm exaggerating a bit.  But seriously, if you're thinking of changing something, at least read the thread first.  And then tell us about your idea.  If it's bad, we'll try to explain why; if it's really good, it might just get incorporated into the system.


 


So, what do you think? Is it a good house rule? Are there any hidden downsides I may have missed? Is there anything I could have made better?  Tell me your thoughts.


 


*If you want a quick fix, here's an idea: use my system, but convert every magic item into a legendary boon (/divine boon/grandmaster training/whatever).  Oh, and have any boons that replace enhancement-granting items take 10 levels to fade, instead of 5.

Some things to consider Show
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2009 - 9:09PM #2
ff6shadow
Date Joined: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 10,589
I like it. Enough that I may make use of it here soon.
http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven

The Play-by-Post recruitment hub for the forums.
Stop by, join us, and sign up for some games while you are there

Cookie Collection Show

Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:12AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2009 - 9:40PM #3
KNishiuchi
Date Joined: Jul 13, 2009
Posts: 30
It's so good, it's what should have been done in the first place. Pride should be swallowed and wotc should just admit they fumbled the math.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2009 - 10:57PM #4
Qube
Date Joined: Nov 1, 2002
Posts: 4,315
I see a possible downside: there are no more 'epic' weapons: the difference between a super ultimate epic shiny flaming longsword (a.k.a. +3 flaming with your fix), and your default flaming longsword (a.k.a. +1 flaming longsword) ... is +2 attack and damage.
Qube's block builder: if you want to create blocks for powers, items and monsters for this forum, but don't know html
"Signature in a box" Show
For years, I've lived a double life. In the day, I do my job - I ride the bus, roll up my sleeves with the hoi-polloi. But at night, I live a life of exhilaration, of missed heartbeats and adrenalin. And, if the truth be known a life of dubious virtue. I won't deny it - I've been engaged in violence, even indulged in it. I've maimed and killed adversaries, and not merely in self-defence. I've exhibited disregard for life, limb and property, and savoured every moment. You may not think it, to look of me but I have commanded armies, and conquered worlds. And though in achieving these things I've set morality aside, I have no regrets. For though I've led a double life, at least I can say - I've lived.

3.jpg
D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - Stone Gaint




Scipio: And Chihuahuas have definitely improved in the "attacking ankles, yapping, and being generally annoying" environment.
Me: OK, am I the only who sees an analogy between forum trolls & Chihuahuas?

"Some of my work:" Show

XDMC 19 (silver): A full fledged assassins guild (with stats, skill challenges, ...)link
XDMC 14 (Bronze): a one shot campaign for beginning DMs/players. link
XDMC 16: Paragon path: the Epitome: being better then all then any one else. link (note: this is balanced)
XDMC 25: The Gelatinous Cube mount
Guide To Disreality: a collection of houserules
-
Introduction & table of content

"My ego in a box" Show
who am I kidding? my ego would never fit in a box
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2009 - 11:35PM #5
Igfig
Date Joined: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 314

KNishiuchi wrote:

It's so good, it's what should have been done in the first place. Pride should be swallowed and wotc should just admit they fumbled the math.


Thanks! I'm not sure if it's "what they should have done it in the first place", though: standard D&D traditionally puts quite a bit of emphasis on magic items. This rule is more of a variant for if you want to try a different play style. Handing out Weapon Expertise for free at level 1 is simpler, and probably better for most games.


Qube wrote:

I see a possible downside: there are no more 'epic' weapons: the difference between a super ultimate epic shiny flaming longsword (a.k.a. +3 flaming with your fix), and your default flaming longsword (a.k.a. +1 flaming longsword) ... is +2 attack and damage.


Hey, +2 attack and damage is pretty significant: it's the equivalent of three feats. Plus, it's not like most people consider getting a +5 weapon to be terribly exciting right now--it's almost exactly the same as the +4 weapon they just sold. Feels more like part of the levelling-up process, just one more number you crank. Right now, that +1 of difference is just something that's owed to the player, rather than something to make them think "Wow, that's awesome!" In my system, you can never predict perfectly when you'll get that next plus, and each plus has a much greater relative significance than each standard-system plus.

Also, the enhancement bonus isn't the only thing better weapons have going for them. That +3 weapon might be a Holy Avenger. Or Vorpal. Or even just an improved lower-level weapon--+3d6 damage from the Battlecrazed greataxe, anyone?

Some things to consider Show
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2009 - 2:43AM #6
Pluisjen
Date Joined: May 13, 2009
Posts: 14,168
I like this a lot, it's a really good idea

As for the money sink; I think if you keep the prices of the items as they are (as in; that +3 epic weapon costs the same as a regular +3 epic item) you could just divide the gp gains by 5 and the system would rebalance itself, since each item that is 5 levels higher costs 5 times as much.

That also means that owning something mundane, like a castle, also becomes awesome, because they are actually more expensive then your sword. It's no longer 'I trade this shiny blade for your kingdom', mundane stuff actually has value again.

This should be tried out, worked out, and be presented as the low-magic approach to regular 4e D&D.
Epic Dungeon Master



Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!


Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2009 - 10:56AM #7
darokinblade
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2005
Posts: 46
I like it!

I do wonder how you will cover a few circumstances though. First, what if the party has an artificer. How will you handle item creation? Do you lower treasure (gold) given in addition to actual items given? Or do you just eliminate the Enchant Magic Item ritual trees?

Also, one thing not taken into account: Critical Hits. In the 4e system, you ad d6,d8,10s or d12s per +1 of the item each time they critical hit. While critical hits are rare enough that that may not be a big deal, for a class like a dagger master who is supposed to critical hit 15% of the time, that can be a huge deficit for their class. How would you suggest handling that?
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2009 - 10:57AM #8
Igfig
Date Joined: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 314

Pluisjen wrote:

I like this a lot, it's a really good idea

As for the money sink; I think if you keep the prices of the items as they are (as in; that +3 epic weapon costs the same as a regular +3 epic item) you could just divide the gp gains by 5 and the system would rebalance itself, since each item that is 5 levels higher costs 5 times as much.

That also means that owning something mundane, like a castle, also becomes awesome, because they are actually more expensive then your sword. It's no longer 'I trade this shiny blade for your kingdom', mundane stuff actually has value again.

This should be tried out, worked out, and be presented as the low-magic approach to regular 4e D&D.


Y'know, that might just work. I do see one small hitch, though: what do we do with items that don't grant enhancement bonuses, like hats and boots?


darokinblade wrote:

I like it!

I do wonder how you will cover a few circumstances though. First, what if the party has an artificer. How will you handle item creation? Do you lower treasure (gold) given in addition to actual items given? Or do you just eliminate the Enchant Magic Item ritual trees?


Like I said, either treasure (including the monetary variety) needs to be reduced, or a lot of money sinks should be instituted. Enchant Magic Item might need to be removed or modified under Pluisjen's suggestion to keep people from making epic items at level 11, but in the original version item creation proceeds as normal for the item's adjusted level.

That said, to keep the right feel you might want to replace residuum with power components. The total cost of the Enchant Magic Item ritual would be the same, but 1/5 of the component cost would have to be quested for. A +1 vicious weapon, for instance (a level 7 item), might require 520 gp of rare Baatorian Greensteel as well as 2080 gp in regular components. If the sword were then disenchanted, instead of 520 gp of residuum you'd get the same amount of greensteel.

But yeah, I'm not entirely sure what to do about money yet.

darokinblade wrote:

Also, one thing not taken into account: Critical Hits. In the 4e system, you ad d6,d8,10s or d12s per +1 of the item each time they critical hit. While critical hits are rare enough that that may not be a big deal, for a class like a dagger master who is supposed to critical hit 15% of the time, that can be a huge deficit for their class. How would you suggest handling that?


I think the

Some items and powers will need changing: item properties that scale relative to enhancement bonus (Bloodclaw, for instance) will have to be increased to twice the enhancement bonus.


clause should cover that. +3 weapons would deal an extra six dice of damage on a crit.

Some things to consider Show
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2009 - 11:50AM #9
Pluisjen
Date Joined: May 13, 2009
Posts: 14,168
Hm, yeah the other items might be troublesome...

Ok, scrap my first idea. It's even easier to rebalance everything, just double the level for all weapons, armor, and other items with an enhancement bonus.
That fixes when you can craft it, what it costs, and when you should get it.
Epic Dungeon Master



Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!


Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2009 - 9:08PM #10
Igfig
Date Joined: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 314
Yeah, that's probably best. Items are priced as if they had twice their enhancement bonus.

I was just looking at the treasure tables, and noticed that, each level, the PCs get one item of each level from level+1 to level+4, plus enough money to get two more items of the same level as the party.

Now, each PC normally goes through six weapons, six amulets, and six suits of armour over the course of their career: one of each bonus. 5 PCs x 3 slots x 6 bonuses = 90 items. Under my system, each PC will have only 3 items for each slot, for a total of 45 items.

What this means is that we just have to remove an average of 1.5 treasure packets each level to keep things balanced. I suggest alternating the highest-level item with the two lowest-level items, although that's just off the top of my head. But as far as I can tell, other than that treasure won't have to be reduced at all.

I think that makes sense.
Some things to consider Show
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 8  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing