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3 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2010 - 9:39PM
#71
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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If you really want a perfectly smooth progression, maybe you should get rid of masterwork armour and just grant the bonus automatically to characters wearing heavy armour. I know I argued against that earlier, but that was that system and this is this system. Your point about the damage breakdown is a good one: we certainly did get the calculations wrong. However, I've been doing some research into damage breakdowns for my next big project, and I discovered something interesting: between level 1 and 30, average damage increases not by 15 points, but rather 29. A typical at-will power will deal about 1[W]+ primary ability modifier + secondary ability modifier damage. Assuming the character is using a standard one-handed military weapon with 1d10 damage and +2 proficiency, the breakdown would look something like this:
| Source | Bonus | Notes |
|---|
| Primary ability increases |
+4 |
|
| Secondary ability increases |
+4 |
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| Enhancement
|
+6 |
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| Item
|
+6 |
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| Feat |
+3 |
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| Epic at-will |
+6 |
1d10 -> 2d10 |
| Miscellaneous |
+1 |
often SWF |
| Total |
30 |
|
The reason it adds up to +30 instead of +29 is that most PCs will take either Weapon Focus or Superior Weapon Proficiency at first level. Speaking of taking things at level 1, I realized that the 1,6,11... progression for mastery bonuses has a nasty flaw: if you get a bonus at level 1, it doesn't really count toward increases over the course of thirty levels because you've had it the whole time. The obvious solution is to remove the level 1 bonus and put it somewhere else; the obvious question is "where?" The three options I'm currently considering are:
- put the bonus at level 30, for more capstoning
- reinstate Weapon Expertise as an epic feat that grants a +1 bonus to attacks... I'm not considering this very seriously.
- leave it as a floating "Miscellaneous" bonus and hope the player can do something with it.
Any more ideas?
Oh, and by the way... since we haven't found anything better, I hereby dub this system "The One Stone System".
Some things to consider
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3 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2010 - 8:58PM
#72
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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I was thinking about the problems with progression some more just now, and I had a revelation. No, more like two.
The first revelation was that I don't actually like the idea of an automatic progression. A bonus is far more satisfying when you've earned it, when you can look at it and say "That +1 is because I spent six months training with Master Song-Hei," than when the bonus is given for free at a predictable level.
The second was that there's already an event that happens roughly every five levels, in an unpredictable manner, and to one PC at a time; requires a serious effort to achieve; and has intentionally nebulously defined rewards. I'm talking about minor quests.
It always rubbed me the wrong way that a PC's minor quest, a quest with intense personal significance, should benefit each PC the same amount. I understand the balance reasons for it, and they're very good reasons, but that's how I felt.
But if we tie mastery bonuses to the completion of minor quests, suddenly that personal angle is back. Back with a vengeance: not only are minor quests valuable, they're mandatory. Any character that can't get involved with the world, that doesn't have goals or hopes or dreams, will find himself falling behind the people who do have a reason to fight.
I think that would be pretty cool.
Some things to consider
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3 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2010 - 12:11AM
#73
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Date Joined:
Dec 17, 2008
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This is a pretty fantastic idea. I came up with something similar a while back, but I've never play-tested it.... mostly because I have yet to get a game above the heroic tier to even make it relevant.
I remove all of the craptastic expertise and robust defenses feats that are so OP they pigeonhole all characters into taking them over taking unique flavor feats.
I also get rid of all masterwork armors, I find the execution to be a bit lackluster, especially considering there are no masterwork weapons. Additionally, they are conceptually redundant with regular magic armor - they only exist to shore up a weakness in the math, and that's lame. This change brings AC for light/no armor wearers in line with the growth from attacks and other defenses. To compensate for the loss for heavy armor users, I imagine I'd grant a cumulative +1 bonus to AC at fixed intervals, such as every 7 or 8 levels, to all characters that would only apply while they are wearing heavy armor. .
I've reflavored "magic" arms and armor to simply be "superior quality" arms and armor. This makes the label of 'magic' not so much of a crutch to necessarily apply to all gear a character is using as they rise in level; i.e. a Longsword +2 might simply be a masterwork quality longsword made with a particularly strong type (ex. Damascus) of steel, or it might be a once-mundane longsword imbued with some type of magic so that it is perpetually flaming. I also use non-specific house rules for upgrading or reforging gear. I find that simply reflavoring the 'magic' gear, along with providing relatively easy upgrade options, removes some of the stress associated with the constant need to upgrade from both myself and the players, and removes some of the excessiveness associated with shopping and treasure parcels.
So, characters go back to how they were before PHB2 in all respects, except their AC is slightly lower to match the attack bonus, etc., as well. As for compensating for that loss - that's what I really need to playtest. My first instinct is to let it be and to just slightly lower average encounter levels as characters rise to allow for high level encounters to be truly epic.... a level 30 encounter should be tough even if the PCs are level 30... right? On the other hand I might just add in a tier based bonus to all attacks and defenses.
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3 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2010 - 10:54AM
#74
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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Heheh. Yeah, lots of people have come up with something like this; the trick is to do it well. Personally, I'm not a fan of doing away with masterwork armour...
If you don't want to get all crazy about recalculating numbers or replacing items, just consider the characters receiving some type of armor mastery bonus that increases the base AC of their armor by +1 or +3 per tier respectively.
This would work well as far as brevity and simplicity are concerned... but something feels off about it. Essentially PCs get a major free bonus just for putting on a suit of heavy armour--and not from the armour itself, mind you, but just by virtue of being heroes. I can understand armour mastery feats, since they represent extra training with a specific armour type, but this kind of thing, not so much. Mayyybe it would work if you only got the heavy armour bonus for armour you're proficient with? I'm not sure.
...but I can see where you're coming from, especially with the "enhancement bonuses as superior quality". As long as your heavy armour bonus is granting four increases over the course of 29 levels, you should be good.
However, I wouldn't recommend trying to compensate for lower PC bonuses with decreased encounter levels. As a general rule, you should keep your fixes as close to the thing they're modifying as possible. The further you venture afield, the more likely it is that you'll fail to find a balance and just end up with something simultaneously over- and underpowered. 3.5 monstrous races, for instance: at-will SLAs of incredible power, but so few HD that they die in one hit.
And truth be told, a level 30 encounter should be just as hard for a level 30 party as a level 1 encounter is for a level 1 party. They should have the same chances of hitting, deal the same damage relative to each others' hp, and inflict conditions of the same relative potency.
So yeah, a +3 mastery bonus to attacks and defenses is your second best option.
(Your best option is of course the One Stone System, wink wink.)
Some things to consider
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3 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2010 - 1:09PM
#75
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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Small update to reflect changes made in Essentials. By that I mean the feats that grant a scaling feat bonus to one thing and a situational bonus to another. I like those feats, but getting rid of the item bonuses completely would make them too weak.
My compromise: Expertise-style feats are back, but they don't scale with level.
Some things to consider
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