Err, nope. Not better, but I go for simplicity, and the "Hero System" might work. Super simple name, but fitting since it accentuates the role of the player's progression over items.
Also, damnit why didn't I see this before I started my campaign!!
Any suggestions how to implement this with an already started campaign, other than just making the players trade in all their gear, and apply the new rules?
Locke: [after mugging a merchant for his clothes] It's a little tight, but the price was right.
Unfortunately the name Hero System has already been taken. I also want to avoid the word "Heroic" lest people mistakenly connect the system with the Heroic tier.
If you're still in the heroic tier, it shouldn't be too hard to make the switch to my system. If you drop Expertise, decrease enhancement bonuses by 1 and add a +1 or 2 mastery bonus, numbers are likely to stay about the same or maybe increase a little, which your players should be fine with. Even at higher levels, the change should be pretty straightforward.
Masterwork light armour no longer exists. Masterwork heavy armour...
Call me dense, but I could use some clarification. If one of my characters has +2 Leather now under the original system, what would he then have and how would this affect his AC? (using simplest example I can think of...see below, since its more specific)
my understanding is --
by-the-book: 14 AC broken down as +0 AC no such thing as mastery, +2 from armor, +2 enhancement (character possesses Magic leather armor +2, lvl 6 item)
my guess at using your system: your system: now 15 AC, broken down as +2 AC from mastery, +2 armor, +1 enhancement (character possesses Magic leather armor +1, still a lvl 6 item)
Please, correct me if I am wrong.
Also..Regarding implementation, your system should be made even easier to work in, due to the fact I gave everyone 1 free expertise feat each at 1st level. However, I did notice a peculiar thing about the conversion of these 7th level PCs. That is, applying your system would cause the following for them:
+2 jumps in most if not all of their Defenses
+2 AC (or only +1 if they had some +2 armor before)
+2 to all attack roll (or only +1 if they had weapon/implement expertise in that attack type before)
+2 to damage (or only +1 if they had some +2 weapon/implement before)
errr- does that seem right? although, perhaps it was just my distribution of slightly lower level gear which caused the disparity-though I am loathe to think that my oversights cost them that much in the way of numbers
for the record, what I gave them as 7th level PC gear, was:
One Lvl+0 item
Two Lvl-1 items
One Lvl-1 item's-worth of gold pcs
(Should probably restore this all to normal if I do the changeover..)
Locke: [after mugging a merchant for his clothes] It's a little tight, but the price was right.
Masterwork light armour no longer exists. Masterwork heavy armour...
Call me dense, but I could use some clarification. If one of my characters has +2 Leather now under the original system, what would he then have and how would this affect his AC? (using simplest example I can think of...see below, since its more specific)
my understanding is --
by-the-book: 14 AC broken down as +0 AC no such thing as mastery, +2 from armor, +2 enhancement (character possesses Magic leather armor +2, lvl 6 item)
my guess at using your system: your system: now 15 AC, broken down as +2 AC from mastery, +2 armor, +1 enhancement (character possesses Magic leather armor +1, still a lvl 6 item)
Please, correct me if I am wrong.
You've got the basic idea right, although these specific numbers are a bit off because you're not including the 1/2 level bonus. A level 6 character with level 6 Magic Leather and no Dex or Int bonus has AC 17 by the book, and AC 18 by my system.
Also..Regarding implementation, your system should be made even easier to work in, due to the fact I gave everyone 1 free expertise feat each at 1st level. However, I did notice a peculiar thing about the conversion of these 7th level PCs. That is, applying your system would cause the following for them:
+2 jumps in most if not all of their Defenses
+2 AC (or only +1 if they had some +2 armor before)
+2 to all attack roll (or only +1 if they had weapon/implement expertise in that attack type before)
+2 to damage (or only +1 if they had some +2 weapon/implement before)
errr- does that seem right? although, perhaps it was just my distribution of slightly lower level gear which caused the disparity-though I am loathe to think that my oversights cost them that much in the way of numbers
for the record, what I gave them as 7th level PC gear, was:
One Lvl+0 item
Two Lvl-1 items
One Lvl-1 item's-worth of gold pcs
(Should probably restore this all to normal if I do the changeover..)
Yeah, you're shortchanging your players a bit in the item department. If you look at p. 125 of the DMG, you'll see that magic items should usually be higher level than the PCs that find them. This is because each PC only gets, on average, one new item each level. That means that when you get a new item for a slot, it'll be about five levels before you find something else to replace it. If the item was a level lower than you when you found it, it's six levels lower than you when it gets replaced--close to useless. If the item started out two levels above you, however, it'll only be three levels behind when it gets replaced.
I am pretty sure I understand, but before I go saying the wrong thing..the system does intend for a +1 aftershock sword from before to give no crit bonus right? you only get the power right? (since +1 divided by 2 is .5, rounded down to 0, then times 2 is still 0d6 added to crit)
and likewise, another example, say a +3 aftershock weapon. that would be identical to a +2 aftershock weapon right? (3/2 is 1.5, rounded down to 1, then times 2 is still +2d6 to crit, thus achieving the "jump" in damage when getting a new more powerful weapon)
EDIT: The alternative method I see for these edge cases is to use the unrounded number for the multiplication, thus giving intermediary weapons like the +1 aftershock a +1d6 to crit, a power, but no enhancement bonus. And under that method, a +3 would give +3d6 to crit, a power, but only +1 enhancement bonus. However, I am fairly certain that is NOT how you intended for it to work though, right?
Locke: [after mugging a merchant for his clothes] It's a little tight, but the price was right.
What? No. A +1 weapon deals +2d6 on a crit, a +2 weapon deals +4d6, and a +3 weapon deals +6d6. That's it.
I certainly understand that there are no +4 and up weapons. I also understand the +1 giving a +2d6 on crit. But this is confusing me for the first time now..cuz you said 'no', but it sounds like you are agreeing with what I said..I am asking specifically about low level weapons (5th and under). Perhaps I should reiterate in more specific terms what I was asking to clarify:
-Correct? An originally +1 aftershock weapon would become an effective +0 aftershock weapon (no dmg on crit, no enhancement, and only retain the aftershock property)
-Unless you are also implying that these items level 5 or less no longer possess any special qualities; something I originally did not understand to be the case (using the example of an originally +1 aftershock weapon, it would become anormal +0 mundane weapon, thus doing away with level 5, and under, magical weaponry)
(The edit part on the previous post was referring to the possibility of another situation, which I didn't think was the case, and I feel you have made clear is not the case.)
Locke: [after mugging a merchant for his clothes] It's a little tight, but the price was right.
The thing I was rejecting was the idea that there's a direct relationship between a weapon's enhancement bonuses in the two systems. (Sorry I didn't make that clear.)
There isn't. You can't map old-style weapons directly to new-style ones. Don't think about "originally" or "effective"; that just invites confusion, as you can see. There's only the old system and the new system. A +2 magic weapon in the old system does one thing, and is level 6. A +1 magic weapon in the new system does something else, and is also, coincidentally, level 6.
So yeah, there are no magic weapons at all in the level 1-5 range. Also 11-15 and 21-25. Same goes for armour and neck slot items.
Okay, despite what Igfig said in the first post about not trying to change or improve his system, I still wanted to do my own take on it. I've been thinking about this for a while now and here's what I've come up with. I did quite a few tests to make sure the math added up correctly, as is shown by the comparisons listed below.
So to reiterate, the breakdown for the bonuses for attack and defense should be as follows: +29 Total +15 from 1/2 level +6 from mastery bonuses +3 from enhancement bonuses +4 from stat boosts +1 from miscellaneous
I wanted the power curve to be as smooth as possible. I did away with the 1/2 level and combined it with the +6 mastery bonuses to give a total of +21 from level dependent bonuses. You now get a +1 to all attacks and defenses at every level above 1 except 4, 8, 11, 14, 18, 21, 24, and 28. That's a total of +21.
I chose those levels because those are the levels where your stats increase (which means depending on your starting stats you have the potential to get a +1 to attack, damage, and at least one defense). I didn't want to stack a level dependent +1 on the same level as a stat boost dependent +1. I'm just picky about it, and I do realize it adds a little bit more complexity to the system.
I made a spreadsheet to compare attack bonus progression under my modification to that of core. I wanted to compare how smooth the power curve was and make sure that at any given level the attack bonus under this houserule was not too high or too low compared to a standard game. Attack_Bonus_Comparison It only adds up to 28 at the bottom instead of 29 because it doesn't count the "+1 from miscellaneous." I also have comparisons for Non-AC defenses and AC in light armor. NAD_Comparison Light_Armor_Comparison
I also wanted to address damage output. Earlier in the thread we had discussed the breakdown of damage bonuses, but it was added up wrong. Here's what it should be: +15 total +6 from enhancement bonuses +4 from stat boosts +3 from weapon focus +2 miscellaneous (+6 from Iron Armbands of Power, Staff of Ruin, etc.)
I added a +4 bonus to damage from mastery. You get a +1 to all damage rolls at levels 4, 11, 18, and 24. I chose those levels because if you started with an even number in your main attack stat (it seems most players do) stat boosts would give you a +1 to attack and damage at levels 8, 14, 21, and 28. That leaves 4, 11, 18, and 24 as kind of "dead levels" (since you don't get a level dependent bonus on those levels -- see above), so I gave +1 damage at each of those levels.
The new damage breakdown is as follows: +15 total +3 from enhancement bonuses +4 from stat boosts +4 from mastery bonuses +3 from weapon focus +1 miscellaneous (+3 from Iron Armbands of Power, Staff of Ruin, etc.)1
Yes, there's also a comparison spreadsheet for damage progression: Damage Bonus Comparison The first column in the middle is without the item bonus from Iron Armbands, etc. The second column in the middle is including the item bonus.
Totalling the attack and damage progressions from above, the total level dependent bonuses are as follows: At levels 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 22, 23, 25, 26, 27, 29, 30: Gain a +1 to all attacks and defenses
At levels 4, 11, 18, 24: Gain a +1 to all damage rolls
At levels 8, 14, 21, 28: (assumed from stat increases) Gain a +1 to attacks, damage rolls and at least one defense
Here is a spread sheet showing a summary of all level dependent bonuses, including feats and powers: Summary_of_Benefits And a breakdown of the same: Breakdown_of_Benefits
In the breakdown, I listed the total number of "perks" per level. A "perk" is any choice or bonus gained at that level and includes attack powers, utility powers, class features, feats, and attack or damage bonuses. I counted stat boosts at 8, 14, and 28 as perks because (as discussed above) they usually give you a +1 to attack, damage, and at least one defense, but didn't count stat boosts at 4, 18, and 24 for the same reason. The +1 to all stats at levels 11 and 21 were enough of a "perk" to count, whether they increased your main attack or not.
Obviously not all perks are equal (attack powers are better than utilities, class features are better than feats, etc.) but it helped me to see which levels already had a lot going on and which levels didn't. I used this to decide on the final breakdown for level dependent bonuses, as I wanted every level to have at least two perks.
So in summary, really the only difference between what I have decided on here and what Igfig put forth in the first post is that instead of adding 1/2 your level to attacks and defenses and then an extra +1 at 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, 26 I decided to break that +21 down differently over the 30 levels.
1 I nerfed these items as discussed earlier in the thread
There is however, still the problem of masterwork heavy armor. I looked at doing it the way Igfig described in the initial post. That gives a +2 to masterwork heavy armor at paragon tier and an additional +2 at epic tier. This is how it works out: Heroic: +1 armor, +0 MW bonus, total=+1 Paragon: +2 armor, +2 MW bonus, total=+4 Epic: +3 armor, +4 MW bonus, total=+7
Didn't like it. The jump of three points between each tier is as bad or worse than the jump if you were using PHB1 only, before they smoothed the progression in AV1.
Instead I wanted to do away with masterwork armors and just say heavy armors get +2 AC per enhancement bonus instead of +1. That is +1 plate gives +2 AC (+10 total), +2 plate gives +4 AC (+12 total) and +3 plate gives +6 AC (+14 total). But this doesn't solve the problem either because it puts the AC of heavy armor users one point below light armor users at epic (two points if the light armor user picks an epic destiny that boosts Int or Dex).
So that means the progression needs to be +1 armors give +2 AC, +2 armors give +5 AC and +3 armors give +7 AC. It goes +2, +3, +2, which is awkward but works.
As above, heavy armors give +2 AC per plus instead of +1, but then +2 and +3 armors are masterwork and thus get an ADDITIONAL +1 AC. If you wanted, you could say +3 armors give a bonus to a NAD (or resist/all for plate) in addition to the extra +1 AC. So the breakdown for that is Heroic: +2 armor, +0 MW bonus, total=+2 Paragon: +4 armor, +1 MW bonus, total=+5 Epic: +6 armor, +1 MW bonus, total=+7 (plus NAD bonus)
I made yet another spread sheet to compare this method to the AC progression of heavy armors in core: Heavy_Armor_Comparison
In the spreadsheet, the numbers highlighted in green are where the AC jumps more than two points in one level. This method will definitely work, but I don't know if it is optimal at epic levels because I've only played in heroic and paragon tiers so far.
Does this solve the heavy armor problem? Or are there still kinks to get worked out?
There's a few ways to alter this so it makes sense and seems less arbitrary:
You could say that ALL magic heavy armor is masterwork. Instead of the +2 AC per plus as described above, the magic armor only gets +1 AC per enhancement bonus but then gets extra MW bonuses as follows: Heroic: +1 armor, +1 MW, total=+2 Paragon: +2 armor, +3 MW, total=+5 Epic: +3 armor, +4 MW, total=+7 (plus NAD bonus) This is just a different way of describing the method I outlined above.
At epic tier, heavy armor gets an additional +1 AC from being masterwork, instead of the NAD bonus. Heroic: +2 armor, +0 MW, total=+2 Paragon: +4 armor, +1 MW, total=+5 Epic: +6 armor, +2 MW, total=+8 I really don't think you need this one. If you look at the comparison, the modified progression already ends up one point higher than the original progression.
Or you could just give a flat +1 AC to heavy armor users at mid-paragon, like level 15 or 16. Heroic: +2 armor, +0 bonus, total=+2 Paragon: +4 armor, +1 bonus, total=+5 Epic: +6 armor, +1 bonus, total=+7 This simplifies things a little by going back to "heavy armor gives +2 AC per enhancement bonus instead of +1" as described above, but then you have to remember to throw in the extra +1 halfway through paragon tier.
