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4 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2009 - 11:43PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2009
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I like the idea.. a big issue I see is neck items. Neck items get pluses at the same rate as weapons... so unless everyone gets +1 to fort/ref/will to start and +1 each 5 levels, you're gonna lose out on stats from the items... IDK if doing that is such a swell idea. Also, certain items have no actual effect, just a larger die for extra crit damage.
A possible fix would be to have an extra die for crit per 5 levels (rather than plus), and in cases where the item's only bonus is the increase in size, have that be it's property...
I'm assuming your idea cuts the cost on magic items too? (Sorry, I'm exhausted and didn't have motivation to read all of your post)
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4 years ago ::
Jul 16, 2009 - 7:47PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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I like the idea.. a big issue I see is neck items. Neck items get pluses at the same rate as weapons... so unless everyone gets +1 to fort/ref/will to start and +1 each 5 levels, you're gonna lose out on stats from the items... IDK if doing that is such a swell idea.
Neck slot items follow exactly the same progression as weapons. So yeah, everybody gets +1 to each defense every 5 levels.
Also, certain items have no actual effect, just a larger die for extra crit damage.
A possible fix would be to have an extra die for crit per 5 levels (rather than plus), and in cases where the item's only bonus is the increase in size, have that be it's property...
The way we have it going right now, crits and other effects that depend on an item's bonus instead depend on twice the bonus. A +1 vicious weapon deals +2d12 damage on a crit; if the weapon were improved to +2, it would deal +4d12 on a crit.
I originally thought about allowing intermediate steps, such as a +2 vicious weapon with only +3d12 dice of damage, but decided it would be more complicated than necessary and would also work against part of the original aim, which was to reduce the rate of item acquisition.
I'm assuming your idea cuts the cost on magic items too? (Sorry, I'm exhausted and didn't have motivation to read all of your post)
Actually, items are more expensive now. A +3 amulet costs as much as if it were +6.
Some things to consider
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4 years ago ::
Aug 05, 2009 - 12:52PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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Evidently my memory was muddy: proper masterwork armour doesn't appear until level 4. Applying a minor change to make up for that.
Some things to consider
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4 years ago ::
Aug 05, 2009 - 3:30PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2007
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I'm actually working on something similar. Characters get a bonus to attacks and defenses (including AC), based on level: 03: +1, 05: +2, 09: +3, 13: +4, 15: +5, 19: +6, 23: +7, 25: +8, 29: +9. If you wear heavy armor, you get an extra bonus to AC: 07: +1, 11: +2, 17: +3, 21: +4, 27: +5. No masterwork armor. No expertise feats, no paragon/robust defenses. Maximum one of the following feats (or two if you have at least 19 Str and Con, Dex and Int, or Wis and Cha): great fortitude, lightning reflexes, iron will, epic fortitude/reflex/will, unyielding fortitude, opportune reflexes, or indomitable will. Armor specialization feats no longer grant +1 AC (but should each do something else useful instead).
For magic items, you get all of their normal bonuses besides enhancement bonuses to attacks or defenses, including damage, bonus critical damage, properties, powers, etc. You also apply up to a +1 bonus to attacks and defenses if the item is higher level than you are. You should never end up with a lower bonus from this though. For instance, if you were level 10 with a level 11 weapon, and reached level 11, but your attack bonus did not increase, you still get the +1 from the item until level 12. New items you pick up after you get to level 11 would not be affected (the item you had is sort of grandfathered in at its current bonus).
The bonuses show up at kind of strange levels, but I think they work out well. They're all odd numbered levels, since you already get +1 at each even level. At level 7 or 8, you get a bonus from heavy armor or ability score increase (if you didn't get it at 4), so I went for level 5 instead of 6 for the second increase. Level 5/15/25 is also in line with how Expertise feats worked.
Maybe you can draw some inspiration from that?
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4 years ago ::
Aug 07, 2009 - 11:16PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
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Great work. I'll definitely be using this. Now, if I may suggest a very small change to keep things from getting too verbose.
Just drop all magic items into the same bag in terms of bonuses. All magic items with an enhancement bonus, be they weapons, implements, or armor all act in the same way. +1 at Heroic, +2 at Paragon, and +3 at Epic.
Personally, I did away with D&D's loot system long ago, so I have no gold sink problems. Heck, in my current campaign I'm not handing out gold at all. Just tailored rewards as they become appropriate.
I love this set up. Again, I'll be using this in my next session. It should make the players happy to find out they suddenly have a couple free feat slots.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 08, 2009 - 8:08PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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Goober, your idea is interesting, and the math works well. One small criticism: the limitation on Iron Will-type feats seems unnecessary to me. Removing that clause would be to your advantage. The strange level business is also a turn-off to me (I'd probably forget to add nothing at levels 7 and 11), but if it works for you, have fun with it!
Yeah, PrimeSonic, I agree that my armour clause is a bit awkward. And good catch on the implements: I'll add those right away.
My sole reason for doing armour the way I did is the situation that arises when you wear heavy armour and so can't apply Dex or Int to AC. In the standard system, masterwork armour deals with the problem quite elegantly, which is why I used it here.
However, in retrospect it isn't as good for my system as I'd thought. The armour clause is certainly confusing; even worse is the fact that a suit of level 12 braidmail grants a smaller bonus than level 17 forgemail, which is troublesome in a system that's trying to reduce item turnover.
So, let's change something. My question to you all is: what do you think is the simplest way to handle heavy armour? Should we double the enhancement bonus? Redefine masterwork armours? Do something else entirely?
Some things to consider
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4 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2009 - 6:06AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
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I did some number crunching and I think I found the answer.
First off, I'd treat magic armor (and necklaces) with the same criteria as weapons: +1 enhancement bonus per tier.
Next I did the math and found out that, yes, light armor will have greater AC at higher levels than heavy armor due to scaling ability scores.
That being said, we should be keen to note the three base types of armor per category. Like scale armor has normal scale, wyrmscale, and elderscale.
The light armors get a +1 AC bonus per grade while the heavy armors get a +3 enhancement bonus per grade.
If you upgrade the base armor to it's higher grade version each tier, then it all adds up perfectly with heavy armors staying on top of the AC curve. Looking at the minimum enhancement bonuses, it seems pretty clear that these higher grade versions are meant to come into play around halfway through paragon and epic tier play respectively. I think this is what they had in mind for us to do but didn't explicitly mention anywhere.
I'd suggest levels 14-16 as an appropriate threshold for upping the grade on armor. Either way, this works out elegantly and keeps everyone where they need to be.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2009 - 6:23AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Sep 10, 2004
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If you check the Adventurer's Vault, they added in additional masterwork heavy armors. Not counting the ones with special properties, they actually scale heavy armor more evenly. Worth a look for your consideration.
http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven The Play-by-Post recruitment hub for the forums. Stop by, join us, and sign up for some games while you are there Cookie Collection
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4 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2009 - 6:44AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
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Looks good. The idea is to keep the base AC bonus of the armor moving along as the PCs progress. Keeping it from going in giant leaps is a nice touch.
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4 years ago ::
Aug 10, 2009 - 10:43AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
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Oh yes, of course we need something to balance out the slower AC increase of heavy armour users. That's the point.
The thing is, we can't use the old masterwork system, because the bonuses would be all off. We could balance it by changing the bonuses granted by masterwork items (reduce them by 1/tier, so light armour grants no masterwork bonus and heavy armour only grants +2 per tier), or by scrapping masterwork altogether and just saying that heavy armour triples its enhancement bonus. Or alternately we can keep my original idea, have magic armour only ever grant a +1 enhancement bonus, and retain the original masterwork system. The only question is which method is simpler.
Also, ff6shadow, although I dearly love the AV masterwork armours, they cause only trouble here. When we have only three levels of armour, and are trying to cut down on the need for new items, big jumps are actually desirable.
Imagine you have your +2 wyrmscale, and are waiting until you're high enough level for +3 elderscale. What happens if you find out that there's such thing as +2 nagascale, which fits somewhere between the two in terms of quality? Suddenly you need some nagascale to stay competitive, and that's another item you have to get somehow.
Some things to consider
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