Okay, let me start by reminding everyone new here that criticism, questions and alternatives are not only appreciated, but encouraged round these parts.
Secondly, I would like to say that the reason the Waterbender is a bit off is because we wrote most it's material before I updated it with the Flowing attack theme, that's why the powers are a bit wierd and why the Paragon Paths don't quite match up.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that some of the abilities that the Waterbender has use DEX and CHA for non-build related variables. Things like Moon's push, which heals hit points equal to your Charisma mod.
This is an example of an unspoken rule (or spoken rule perhaps) that I wasn't aware of. When you say "It would be best, IMO, to keep things you don't intend to be tied to a particular build to use riders such as DEX or CHA mod, or just stick to WIS, otherwise you're gimping an entire build." I am a little confused. If it is your recomendation that non-build attacks should be tied to Wisdom entirely, I am happy to do that. I think the idea was that healing attacks would use Charisma, harming attacks use Dex, something I have seen in a few classes including the Cleric, from which the Waterbender gained a lot of guidance.
We are going to tighten things up in a final edit and then release the final PDF. It won't have all the material we could possibly think of, but if there is enough demand me and Ekio are already tossing ideas around for an Elemental Power supplement.
It's in the very early stages, but that would be the soonest you would be seeing me write up an entirely new direction for the Waterbender. If I do, I promise it will be more attacky/controllery.
There is a Cold At-Will, it just isn't labled properly in the last PDF. It's called shielding ice.
I will look through the Waterbender one last time to add in some offensive power. I would be willing to hear a good way to add the Waterbender herself to the mix for Flowing attacks, I see this going three ways:
1. The Waterbender can use a Flowing attack against a single enemy target and treat themselves as the effected ally.
2. The Waterbender Flowing attacks simply affect the Waterbender automatically and remain the same.
3. The Waterbender Flowing attacks simply affect the Waterbender automatically, and have their power scaled back slightly to account for this.
Flowing attacks are my brainchild and while I stand by my choice as properly thematic (emphasizing more the pushing/pulling and cyclical nature of Waterbending than simply what is seen in the show) I am happy to have you guys help me tighten it up.
Finally, if you actually read all of this, I would like to briefly respond to your statement about role choice. When I first started this, before I found Ekio's work, I was not planning on having each class fit one of the roles. I still, however, wanted the Waterbender to be a Leader. To me the Leader role emphasises the philosophy of Waterbending best, calm or torrential, water is the basis of life, it is quite literally the support for every living thing. When it does destroy something it usually does it in a slow, steady way, like how it grinds rocks into sand over hundreds of years. For me, that fits Leader. I agree that Controller should be secondary, and my intention is to make the Torrential more Controllery.
I will look into feats and powers, perhaps this weekend, although we are almost done and I think Ekio will stop talking to me if I ask him to update the PDF again after this. How about you throw me some ideas. You can write feats and we'll print them, and if you have a direction you want me to tilt some powers to make them more "Lockdown...y" tell me, the more info you give me, the more likely I am to work it into my schedule. -Usagi
I guess I was a little unclear. I was definitely not ragging on the decision to make waterbender a leader. I think it's a great fit. I think controller could have made since too, but there's no reason to think that because you can lead, you can't control, strike, or defend. Honestly, i think any of the styles could be fit into any of the roles in a pretty nicely (save maybe firebender), but when it comes down to it, waterbender is the only one that can really do ANY leader stuff.
As for flowing strkie, all you'd need to do to satisfy me is change the hit line to you or one ally, and keep it until the end of the next turn. Then I can imagine feat support that would give you more cool stuff to do with it like move people around or freeze them or whatever. The damage rider should be changed to CHA or DEX mod so torrential benders can use it too.
Which gets me to the mods. I was mostly talking about in the PP features/class features and not the actual powers. Take the icebender for example (which may have changed). I get the feeling you wrote it to give the class some kind of strikery-offensive options, and that you didn't inted for it to be build specific. If that's the case, you should decide if the PP uses DEX secondary, CHA secondary, or neither. I would suggest neither/either. If you just changed the two path features to either say one or the other, or to simply give you a choice, either style could get equal mileage out of it. Just a little thing, and one you may have already changed. (And can I mention real quick that I love the icebender path, despite the missing utility and mixed mod usage, and i hope it remains mostly the same)
I guess what threw me at first was the fact that I read the description of torrential waterbender when deciding what to play, and then when I read the powers/feats I didn't see a lot of the flavor that I liked so much in the intro. I think all that needs to happen to change my point of view, however is more powers. More powers that don't necessarily rely on buffing my allies. Powers that weaken defenses, move enemies around, lock them down, do cold damage, etc. Just a few. Like one choice at each level (and there already is one at a lot of them), especially encounter powers throughout heroic.
That being said, I'd love to write a Class Acts Waterbender, if you'd like, and eventually others. I'd be more than happy to throw feats and powers your way if you'd have them. If not, I be just as happy to toss ideas at you. Can I say that the Avatar Wiki does a fantastic job of detailing each of the styles? I'll even put you right on waterbender: avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Waterbending
Keep up the awesome work, guys, and thanks for hearing me out.
You guys remember when 1st Edition came out and dungeons, characters and spells were all divided into seperate, semi-unrelated levels. Everyone got confused about which one you were talking about and games would grind to a halt because someone would be yelling about how they cast a level nine spell and someone else would say that they couldn't cast it becuase they thought they had to be level nine...
No... errr... anyway...
That's what just happened and it's my fault for having a class feature called Flowing Strike and a the Flowing keyword.
In short, I thought you were talking about all of my powers, and I was thinking "Lot's of powers have secondary stats" but you were talking about Flowing strike, which I will change to DEX or CHA.
I will look into the Torrential build, see what I can do without re-writing too much.
Please go ahead, write what you want to see. We'll put it into our Supplement or at least mention it in the PDF. I don't know how to make your ideas, but you do. Plus I struggled enough with writing what I wrote, keeping it interesting and making it work. If you want to make a new build, throw a new power in for each level and a couple of feats and then someone else does that for each of the other classes, it'll certainly make Elemental Power that much easier on us.
In regards to the Avatar Wiki, I visit it regularly and take a lot of inspiration. I will say this much about why I diverged from your ideas, Ekio has a great fondness for Controllers as well, you will notice that the Earthbender does Defendery things in a Controllery way. That's how the Waterbender felt when I came to it. It was... a Controller who had a Healing Class Feature. So I just pulled it away from that as much as I could.
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
Just a few powers. More powers later and some feats later.
Freezing Spike Waterbender Attack 1 You surround your foe with water, prepared to freeze it into a deadly spike should he dare approach you or your allies. At-will ♦ Elemental, Cold, Implement Standard Action Range 5 Target: One Creature Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude Hit: Wisdom modifier damage, and if the target moves from its square before the start of your next turn, it takes an extra 1d6 + Dexterity modifier cold damage. Flash Freeze Waterbender Attack 7 You wait for your enemy to strike, then overtake him with a wave of water, at the last moment freezing it in place. Encounter ♦ Elemental, Cold, Implement Immediate Reaction Trigger: You or one ally takes damage from an attack. Target: The triggering enemy Attack: Wisdom vs. Fortitude Hit: 3d4 + Wisdom modifier cold damage, and the target is restrained until the start of your next turn.
I like these powers, especially the idea of tweaking the "until the end of your next turn" to allow for a low level encounter that restrains.
I do hope you can come up with some Flowing attacks that work with your vision of the Waterbender. Remember, they don't have to heal or provide any specific kind of bonus, they just do one offensive thing and one defensive thing. If you are going for a waterbender that does lockdown, the flowing attacks would probably focus on giving your allies (or yourself, as per the new Flowing rules, due out this week. Short version: you can reduce the area to Line 1 and affect yourself as if you were an ally) greater mobility.
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
Thanks! I definitely plan on making a few flowing powers, because I really like the mechanic. Even in the two powers I wrote so far, I was going for an action/reaction sort of thing. Like the waterbender patiently waits for their foe to make mistakes, and then strikes. So the flowing powers really effectively capture that feel.
I got an idea for some feats for each style that I thought I'd run by you. Since each bending style is based on a real world martial art, it might be cool to offer each as a feat for each style. They could give you monk unarmed strike, and some benefit based on the martial art. It'd only take a little research, I think.
More powers and some feats coming in an hour or so.
I recommend you research by watching people perform the martial arts. Youtube has lots of lovely videos of the different styles. Shoalin Monks are mesmerizing to watch and the Hung Gar Kung Fu is crazy to see on the defensive. As you almost certainly know, the Avatar Wiki has a good bit of information on the styles that informed the show. -Usagi
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
Just dropping by to say I love the work done so far on this project. I see that you (Ekio and Usagi) are pushing to get the PDF finished, but I wonder exactly how much is being added and/or changing for your "final" version. Specifically:
It seems to me that there is a marked lack of Miss effects on daily powers. Is there a reason behind this decision?
Are these classes meant to play alongside other material for 4e? I won't claim to be any kind of expert, but the general power/effectiveness level of most of your material does not seem to be on par with even PBH1. Thoughts regarding this? Perhaps the best example I can offer is Waterbender vs. Cleric - the cleric solidly out-classes the waterbender in both combat and healing. Is that an intentional design choice?
Edit: Also, what's the purpose behind sliding yourself? Why not shift? (As I said, I'm no expert.)
First a quick question, what are you looking at? I assume you are looking at the last PDF Ekio released. Hopefully you are not looking at the finished (but unedited) Waterbender I posted last week or so. If you are, please give me some more details on what you're referring to.
We certainly intend the classes we've made to sync up with other 4e classes and Ekio has been doing plenty of playtesting to make sure of that. I've been doing some rigorous cross referencing to make sure the classes fall in line with official material and, as far as I can tell, the Waterbender has plenty of offensive and defensive power.
What exactly are you referring to when you say "sliding yourself" instead of shifting? I need a direct reference if I'm going to answer your question.
Finally, there are plent of Miss effects, we just haven't shown you guys them. There is a current PDF that we haven't released, and are not going to, because it will be replaced by a much nicer, copy-edited and generally improved PDF in a matter of days.
-Usagi
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
Yes, the PDF. I'm working my way through this thread but 32 pages is a lot! I did just now track down the upadted waterbender and it looks as though you addressed those concerns (though I'm still anxious to see Miss effects!).
What exactly are you referring to when you say "sliding yourself" instead of shifting? I need a direct reference if I'm going to answer your question.
The earthglider technique Ride the Wave and the icebender technique Icy Charge (there are some others, if I recall correctly) make use of this terminology. Mechanically, I don't see a difference between saying "slide your speed" and "shift your speed," except to say that with slide you don't have a choice about the matter. I only bring it up because it stood out to me as odd - I don't know if this is standard lingo or a typo or a new element you're introducing.
Well the distinction between Shifting and Sliding is actually not that it's forced, since you are the one forcing your own movement, you can always choose to go a shorter distance. The distinction instead lies in the fact that forced movement ignores difficult terrain, whereas shifting does not.
In other words, it's slightly better to slide yourself your speed than to shift your speed.
I'm seeing a bit of a dry spot in the miss effects for the waterbender in the just below and just above paragon range, but those powers all have effects as far as I can see... err... again, the most helpful thing you can do is give me specific examples to fix, otherwise I don't think we're going to go back and fix things up before publishing. -Usagi
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
