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Switch to Forum Live View 4E Psionics (Egoist, Shaper, Soulknife, Telepath) - In Progress
5 years ago  ::  Aug 01, 2008 - 3:02PM #61
jahamal
Date Joined: Apr 5, 2004
Posts: 6
I like the idea of Tattoos as rituals.

A few clarifications on the ritual tattoos:

Can a person with a ritual Tattoo teach the ritual to someone else?

Can anyone, even non-psionic people make a ritual tattoo?

Does making a standard ritual into a tattoo change its in game implementation at all?

Also, can psionic rituals be put into a ritual book?
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 01, 2008 - 3:13PM #62
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
Posts: 8,293

jahamal wrote:

I like the idea of Tattoos as rituals.


Well, I wanted them to still be part of the rules, but I wanted them to be more important than just "They're potions... again!"

Can a person with a ritual Tattoo teach the ritual to someone else?


*shrug* It's mostly a flavor thing. Whatever the PH rules are for teaching someone a ritual from a ritual book, same thing - except it's on your skin.

Can anyone, even non-psionic people make a ritual tattoo?


Yes. Think of it as an expanded option more than a psionics-only option. It's mostly a flavor thing - psionic characters favor this method over ritual books.

Does making a standard ritual into a tattoo change its in game implementation at all?


If you mean just using a normal ritual as a tattoo, no, it doesn't change it at all. It still requires the same skill, the same "pages," and the same components.

If you mean changing an arcane ritual into a psionic ritual, for flavor reasons, then yes, it would change which skill you use, and which type of components you have to use.

Also, can psionic rituals be put into a ritual book?


Yup. They're just rituals. The tattoos are simply a different option from a ritual book. They're more or less unrelated to the actual psionic rituals. They just go together thematically.

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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 04, 2008 - 12:27AM #63
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
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I ran the start of a short playtest this weekend: a "classic" party (Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue) and a psionic party (Shaper, Egoist, Telepath, Soulknife), each through the first encounter of Kobold Hall, so I thought I'd put down some of my observations.

The "Classic" Party (For Comparison) Show

First off, I played the classic party all wrong, and their luck was terrible. That slants this a little bit. Anyways, the Rogue ran out to catch the slinger out in the open, and hit it with First Strike/Sneak Attack. That ended up being a bad plan really fast, when the Rogue, who was in a bad position anyways, got Immobilized ("Glue Shot") in a bad location, where two skirmishers could both get adjacent (but no flank).

In short, the Fighter just couldn't get a good position for filling his role well, and the Rogue took the majority of the damage. Even without Sneak Attack, the Rogue was a damage powerhouse with Sly Flourish (Halfling, so... it was like 1d4+7). Low attack rolls made the Wizard an embarrassment, and the Cleric (a laser-cleric build) did okay, but also couldn't hit anything until the very end.

Overall, the classic party fared pretty well, with only the Rogue taking a serious beating. The fighter ended down 14 hp; the Cleric down 4 hp, with 2 out of 3 encounter powers expended; the Rogue down 11 hp and 1 healing surge, with both of his encounter powers expended; and the wizard hadn't spent any resources at all.


The Psionic Party Show

The Psionic party faced a tougher encounter, right off the bat, simply because I played the Kobolds better (including the skirmishers actually getting flanking established). The Egoist was the first character out, and he was immobilized immediately by a readied attack. The skirmishers surrounded him, and got some good flanking hits in.

The Egoist Show
The Egoist filled the defender role extremely well. His Aggressive Compulsion power (the current version) works very similar to how the Fighter's works in practice: nearby foes are locked into place, or they take damage. The major differences are: it costs an action each turn (Minor), it affects all adjacent foes, the targets can still move (but only to other adjacent squares - still, it leave tactical options available), and it deals automatic damage instead of an attack. Vigor, too, worked well, giving a nice little buffer. It's limit of uses per-day meant that the Egoist would only spend it once in the fight, but because of his massive massive hit points it was well worth it.

Which brings up another point. The Egoist was a Dwarven metamorphosist. Using Con for attack? Really feels like it's... [i[precarious[/i]. He really went all-out with the "durability", taking Toughness as his feat, and winding up with 38 hit points, thanks to his 18 Con. And that 18 Con? That meant that, with Claw Strike and Offensive Precognition, his attacks were +7, twice, for 1d6+4 damage.

Claw Strike Issues Show
Claw Strike seems like the damage is too high, compared to the Ranger's Twin Strike - and the Ranger is a Striker, so... take that how you will. For this guy, we were looking at: Claw Strike: Two Attacks, +7 vs. AC, 1d6+4 damage each. A two-weapon ranger with a similarly favorable race would have: Twin Strike: Two Attacks, +7 vs. AC, 1d8 damage each.. A great weapon fighter, for a final comparison, might have: Reaping Strike: One Attack, +7 vs. AC, 2d6+4 damage, 4 damage on miss. The average damage, in this test encounter, against a Skirmisher AC (15), would be like... ~9dpr for Claw Strike, ~8.3 or so for Twin Strike, and ~8.2 for Reaping Strike. So Claw Strike is a bit ahead of the curve.

I'm almost okay with it, for these reasons: you cannot take Weapon Focus for the egoist's polymorph attacks, so damage will not scale as well; the ranger can take a bastard sword to boost his damage output quite a bit; essentially, feats allow weapon-wielders to stay even / pass Claw Strike.

Still, would it hurt it to go down to d4+Con? For that, we'd have... ~7.8 damage, which is lower than other combat classes. Keeping in mind that Power Attack and weapon focus really boosts the great weapon fighter's damage, potentially up past ~9dpr, and that a Bastard Sword and weapon focus really boosts the ranger's damage, potentially up past ~10dpr... I think Claw Strike might be fine where it is, power-wise.


My next concern with it, though, is that the Metamorphosist gets to use a strong defensive stat as an offensive stat, essentially allowing him the best of both worlds. I dunno. I'd like to hear some other opinions on this, I guess.


The Soulknife Show

Okay, enough Egoist. He did his job. The Soulknife did really well, and Double Strike worked wonders. The Soul Link works pretty well, even as a free action, just because he has to hit once before he can even kick it in. It took two tries to tie it onto a target. Even without it though, the Soulknife was doin' good, and as he was built to be a sort of "skirmisher" (Eladrin, High Dex, Double Strike and Throw Blade), he had an attack option every turn, even when he was (repeatedly) immobilized. He felt really well balanced, if a bit odd (Unique, really. He had the skirmishing capabilities of a Rogue, with the melee prowess of a ranger). I need to still test out a more build-path focussed build.


The Shaper Show

Shaper worked, well, almost exactly like the Wizard. He had a slight problem with lacking a good area-effect power, which I would retrain out of ASAP, dropping Entangling Ectoplasm for Corrosive Splash. He attempted to use Astral Minion (1st level Encounter construction), but failed the first sustain save, so it really just popped in, made the kobolds shift away, and then popped out. Still, it made them break their flanking, which was good. After that, well, he mostly just uses Crystal Shard like the Wizard used Magic Missile, which was fine, but not super effective.


The Telepath Show

Finally, the Telepath, which I must admit I'm loving the most out of the classes, mostly for flavor reasons (and probably also because I've spent the most time revising it so far, though the Astral Construct powers are a close second). He broke the first flank on the Egoist using Cunning Suggestion... by having the Kobold run off into the pit. That little schtick ended up really helping out for the whole battle, since the kobold remained stuck until the last few rounds - definitely a good use of an Encounter power. After that, he mostly used Mind Thrust to try to give people an attack boost, but missed a lot. Awkward Stumble was used a few times, which was nice, but the secondary effect (damage on an OpAttack) never kicked in. He was also able to use the Cunning Manipulator class feature to great effect, since both the Egoist and Soulknife made multiple attacks against AC.


Overall, the psionic classes did well. They actually burned a lot more resources than the "classic" party, even though they consistently felt like they were "doing better." The egoist ended up down 25 hp and 3 healing surges, with 1 of his two daily uses of Vigor gone as well; the telepath had both of his encounter powers expended; the soulknife was down 7 hp, with 1 out of 2 encounter powers expended; and the shaper had used his one encounter power.

For 1st level, at least, I don't see any glaring balance issues (except for the Egoist - see above), and the psionic classes are definitely unique enough to justify their existence.


So, that said...

C'mon folks, bring on the comments and criticisms! Also, if anyone else wants to try the classes out, I'd much appreciate it (keep in mind that the Telepath is the only thing I'm totally satisfied with, and that's only levels 1 and 2, at the moment). Let me know how they work for you.
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 05, 2008 - 3:15PM #64
Pyromancer999
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,044
Here's a feat that could be used for the telepath:

Persuasive mind [Telepath]
Prerequisite: one power with the Charm keyword, Telepath
Benefit: When you use a power with the Charm keyword, you may either slide one more square, or deal 1 extra point of damage.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 08, 2008 - 6:58PM #65
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
Posts: 8,293
I like the feat. I'm sure we could make it work (though an extra square of movement is quite a bit).

- - - - -

Beyond that, an update of this thread is long overdue. It's not that I haven't been working on things... it's that I've been working on the Egoist, and it has been... infuriating for the most part (mostly because I keep bouncing around on what I want him to be).

That said, here's a set of Egoist class features that I think I'm finally satisfied with:

EGOIST CLASS FEATURES
You have the following class features.

Aggressive Compulsion
The egoist can generate a field of psionic energy that manipulates his foes, drawing their attention toward him. You can use the aggressive compulsion power to mark several nearby enemies of your choice.

Egoist Path
The egoist hones his mind and body to become ever more skilled at combat. Choose one of the following paths and gain its benefit.
[indent] Metamorphosist: You are focused on the energy of the body, and channeling it to alter your form. When you have both hands free (not holding any objects, and able to make attacks), you gain a +1 bonus to AC, and a +1 bonus to attack rolls with egoist or egoist paragon path powers with the polymorph keyword.
Psionicist: You are focused on the energy of the mind, and channeling it to augment your physical capabilities. Once per encounter you can use either the precognitive reflex power or the precognitive strike power.[/indent]

Psionic Vigor
Psionic power flows freely through the body of the egoist, fortifying him against harm. You can use the vigor power to fortify your body.

Egoist Class Feature Powers Show
Aggressive Compulsion
Egoist Feature
You concentrate your rage and aggression into a wave of psychic energy that draws the attention of nearby foes.
At-Will ♦ x ; Psionic, Psychic
Minor Action ------- Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst
Effect: The target is marked until the end of your next turn. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
- - -
While a target is marked, it takes a -2 x penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn't include you as a target.
- - -
In addition, if the target begins its turn in a square adjacent to you, and moves or shifts into a square that is not adjacent to you, it takes psychic damage equal to 3 x + your Wisdom modifier. The damage increases to 6 + your Wisdom modifier at 11th level, and to 9 + your Wisdom modifier at 21st level.
- - -
You can use aggressive compulsion once per turn.

Precognitive Reflex
Egoist Feature
Your mind shifts seconds into the future, allowing you to react to attacks before they occur.
Encounter (Special) ♦ x ; Psionic
Special: You can use either this power or precognitive strike once per encounter.
Immediate Interrupt ----- Personal
Trigger: You are hit by an attack
Effect: You gain a power bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier to your Reflex defense against the triggering attack.

Precognitive Strike
Egoist Feature
Your mind shifts seconds into the future, allowing you to avoid the target's defenses.
Encounter (Special) ♦ x ; Psionic
Special: You can use either this power or precognitive reflex once per encounter.
Minor Action ------- Personal
Effect: Apply your Wisdom modifier as extra damage on your next attack this turn.

Vigor
Egoist Feature
You focus your mind and body, and fortify your form with psionic power.
At-Will (Special) ♦ x ; Healing, Psionic
Special: You can use this power a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1 x ), but only once per round.
Minor Action ------- Personal
Effect: You spend a healing surge, but regain no hit points. Instead, you gain temporary hit points equal to your healing surge value.


Design Notes: Show
Aggressive Compulsion - I was wary of Aggressive Compulsion, since technically it's a mash-up of the Fighter ability and the Paladin ability. However, in practice it plays very differently. With the combination of this ability and Vigor, the Egoist behaves as a major tank, not just discouraging attacks against foes, but drawing multitudes of foes to himself. Playing one would be... well, it would appear more suicidal than a Fighter, perhaps - but it works.

Egoist Path - Metamorphosist - I kept bouncing ideas around, even opting for claws to be a permanent class feature (like the Soulknife's mind blade) for a while. Eventually though, I decided that I really liked how the metamorphic powers worked in the current version. I wanted to encourage the character to fight "bare handed" - especially since his implement will occupy the arm slot anyways (so shield+claws won't work effectively). This bonus should render the claw build pretty damn effective (+attack is always a good thing), though I'm considering also adding +1 damage. The other alternative would be +1 attack, and +Wisdom Modifier to defense - which I also like.

Egoist Path - Psionicist - The name needs some work maybe, but I like the powers. Yes, they're similar to the divine classes (though more limited - you can't take more feats to add different options), but they work, and they're different. They also help define the "psychic warrior" build as a more "power+weapons" build.

Psionic Vigor - I loved this power on paper, and now, after testing it in play I can say that I love it when implemented as well. The egoist can suck up damage slightly better than the other defender classes - but he needs it, since his "challenge" ability makes him a massive target. As stated above, this power and aggressive compulsion really define the class for me at the moment.


I will update the main Egoist entry within the next day or so, with these class features and updated powers (unless anyone has any comments on this stuff).

As always, questions and comments are much appreciated.
Playtest? Show
I'd love for somebody to playtest these buggers, even if they're only half-complete. Telepath should be completely playable (from my own playtest, I can say that I love it; I may enjoy playing a Telepath more than either Cleric or Warlord), Shaper should be workable, Souknife should... it works (I'm just not happy with the power mechanics / lists yet), and Egoist, with these features (hell, with the features before) works pretty well (though the power list needs to be updated; I'm working on it). If anyone wants to playtest, but would prefer a PDF (including updated Egoist powers, at the moment, as well as some other elements I haven't yet moved from the documents to this thread) send me a PM, and I'll get that to you ASAP.
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

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5 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2008 - 8:56AM #66
Pyromancer999
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,044
I can playtest the classes in my next game, if you wish. Glad you liked the telepath feat. I've also seen that you've created a multi-class feat for the telepath, but would you mind if I made multi-class feats for the rest of the classes?
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 09, 2008 - 10:17AM #67
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
Posts: 8,293

Pyromancer999 wrote:

I can playtest the classes in my next game, if you wish. Glad you liked the telepath feat. I've also seen that you've created a multi-class feat for the telepath, but would you mind if I made multi-class feats for the rest of the classes?


Not at all, I'd love it! I was holding off on the others because their class features hadn't been nailed down all the way yet. Egoist and Shaper are now "complete" when it comes to features, so they should work fine. I'm still going to tweak at least one aspect of the Soulknife, but it shouldn't be anything that would affect a MC feat anyways, so you can go ahead on that too.

If you playtest anything, just let me know how it works out.

Feedback Disclaimer Show

Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)
A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
My 4e Projects Show
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2008 - 6:07AM #68
Pyromancer999
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,044
Ok, here are the multi-class feats:

Strong of Mind [Multi-class egoist]
Prerequisite: Con or Cha 13
Benefit: Gain training in one of the Egoist class skills.
You may use Precognitive reflex and Precognitive Strike each once per day.

Ectoplasmic Initiate [Multi-class Shaper]
Prerequisite: Int 13
Benefit: Gain training in Psionics.
You may use one Shaper at-will talent as an encounter power.
You may use Third-eyes and Dorjes as implements.

Mind Shard Student [Multi-class Soul Knife]
Prerequisite: Cha or Str 13
Benefit: Gain training in one of the Soul Knife class skills.
You may manifest a Mind Blade once per encounter. Also you may use the Psychic strike class feature once per encounter.
You may use Third-eyes as implements.
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2008 - 5:43PM #69
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
Posts: 8,293
Just wanted to pop in real quick-like, and say that the Egoist is done through all of the Heroic tier. It still requires some class-specific feats (though the Multiclass feat is done, modeled on the Fighter feat), but for all effects and purposes it is "done." for Heroic tier.
Feedback Disclaimer Show

Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)
A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
My 4e Projects Show
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5 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 8:04AM #70
Pyromancer999
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2008
Posts: 1,044
How'd you like the mullt-class feats I made?
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