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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 1:37PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2008
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You want a class-less game, go play World of Darkness.
D&D will never be class-less.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 1:39PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Feb 27, 2008
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Not gonna happen. At least, not for anything that ever goes by the name of Dungeons and Dragons. Classes are the very thing that makes D&D what it is, and the game works well for what it does. If you want a classless system, there are plenty of alternatives that'll work great for you. But for the cliched, heroic fantasy adventure that D&D tailors to, classes will always be an intrinsic part.
Not that I'm harping on classless systems, as I love them for any other sort of setting. Classes just don't fit in modern, future, horror, superhero, mystery, etc. I'm not even against an attempt at homebrewing a classless version of 4E, but classless will never be a core feature of D&D.
There are alot of things that arguably could be called "what makes d&d what it is" that are no longer part of the game. I would not discount anything from happening just yet.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 1:43PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2006
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This should probably go in the homebrew section.
For classless 4e I would give people a set number of feats to start out with. Of course you would need to dump powers and class features because they are balanced by class. There would be four types of basic attacks: melee, ranged, blast and burst. Melee and ranged would remain the same and blast and burst would be int, wis, or cha based (based on implement) with the damage based on implement (meaning implements would have to have damage values).
I might develop this more for pick-up games.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 1:43PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2008
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Marking a 3x3 square once an encounter is very different from doing it every turn all fight long.
Yes...this would be an overpowered combination, I certainly don't doubt that.
However, as it stands now, a Paragon Multiclassed Fighter/Wizard could already do this, and add marked scourge on top of it. A Stormsoul Genasi with a sufficiently high WIS score would work nicely.
My point is that the capability to do this already exists within the game, it's just a bit more difficult to achieve.
The biggest problem I see with this is that ostensibly, this combination would make the character a better controller than even the controller classes.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 1:48PM
#15
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Yes...this would be a powerful combination.
However, as it stands now, a Paragon Multiclassed Fighter/Wizard could already do this, and add marked scourge on top of it. A Stormsoul Genasi with a sufficiently high WIS score would work nicely.
My point is that the capability to do this already exists within the game, it's just a bit more difficult to achieve.
"A bit?"
In order to do it now you're spending 4 specific feats, balancing the gear requirements of two classes and missing out on Paragon Path abilities. You're also spread pretty thin in terms of attributes.
This change lets you do it at first level with a single high attribute and no feat expenditure.
That's not "a bit" less difficult, it's a completely different order of magnitude.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 1:53PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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You want a class-less game, go play World of Darkness.
D&D will never be class-less.
The designers of 4e did say that while it was designed with classes in mind, it could easily be done as a classless system instead.
I've thought about it, but havent done it, even though I almost had a classless 3e system going. I've also thought about removing the restriction on only being able to take 1 multiclass, but that might require some nerfing of the multiclass feats, maybe remove the free skill training beyond the 1st or something.
It might allow some powerful combos, but if you trust your players not to abuse the system or at least to all abuse it equally, then go for it. If everyone has fun, then thats all that really matters. It will definitely give them a power boost but I dont think it will break the game.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 1:55PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2008
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This should probably go in the homebrew section.
For classless 4e I would give people a set number of feats to start out with. Of course you would need to dump powers and class features because they are balanced by class. There would be four types of basic attacks: melee, ranged, blast and burst. Melee and ranged would remain the same and blast and burst would be int, wis, or cha based (based on implement) with the damage based on implement (meaning implements would have to have damage values).
I might develop this more for pick-up games.
I've considered giving implements set damage values as well...if you decide to give this a shot I'd like to read about how it works in play.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 2:07PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2006
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I've considered giving implements set damage values as well...if you decide to give this a shot I'd like to read about how it works in play.
I will not be playing until school lets out so I can't really test anything until then. The main problem with converting implements to set damage would be balancing all of the powers, which is more tedious than difficult. I think a proficiency bonus would be appropriate as well (lower than weapons).
I would go:
wand +2 1d4, high crit, off hand
staff +1 1d8
orb +2 1d6, off hand
Or something along that line.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 2:10PM
#19
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There are alot of things that arguably could be called "what makes d&d what it is" that are no longer part of the game. I would not discount anything from happening just yet.
Those various things that you refer to are generally specific mechanical aspects, such as vancian casting. However, to a non-player, D&D is "that game where you play a wizard, or a fighter, or a thief, and you go kill monsters and take their stuff". The classes really are the thing that make D&D what it is.
At the moment, there are people claiming that 4E might as well not be D&D, many of which backing this up by saying that all the classes are the same (not true, but still). Imagine the uproar if there were no classes at all. No, the classes are the iconic feature of D&D, and would always have to remain in some form.
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4 years ago ::
Mar 23, 2009 - 2:15PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2008
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I will not be playing until school lets out so I can't really test anything until then. The main problem with converting implements to set damage would be balancing all of the powers, which is more tedious than difficult. I think a proficiency bonus would be appropriate as well (lower than weapons).
I would go:
wand +2 1d4, high crit, off hand
staff +1 1d8
orb +2 1d6, off hand
Or something along that line.
Proficiency bonus wouldn't work for this because implement powers target nonarmor defenses, which tend to be lower than AC.
Giving implements inherent to-hit bonuses would make them overpowered.
Also, implements already have per encounter abilities associated with them, do they really need weapon properties as well?
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