|
5 years ago ::
Jun 24, 2008 - 4:42AM
#31
|
Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2002
|
Haven't really looked at all the Powers, but, so far, I like it very much. However, I have a few suggestions:
1) Skills list. Even a Bard shouldn't be so versatile. I'd suggest the following Skills as Bard Skills, based on 3.5's list of Bard Class Skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Bluff, Diplomacy, History, Insight, Nature, Perception, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery. He would start with Diplomacy and History as Trained Skills and would be able to choose three others.
This is the bard's skill list in 3rd edition.
Class Skills
The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
I think its safe to say they get pretty much everything. However, Intimidate and heal probably should be removed. Since a bard had access to all knowledges, it would be a crime to not allow him to have access to dungeoneering and religion. As for history as a trained skill, many others have also pointed this out and it will be changed in lieu of arcana.
2) I think both Improvised Jab's power bonus and Inhibiting Song's penalty should be a flat +2/-2, respectively, to bring it more in line with similar At-Will Powers in the book.
See the cleric's Righteous Brand. it is the exact same other than the fact that this one can aid an ally's ranged attack and thus does not last until the end of the bard's next turn.
Inhibiting song should have a duration, and I've just changed it to "next attack." A flat -2 seems appropriate for this power.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 24, 2008 - 6:42AM
#32
|
|
|
I agree that Heal, Endurance, and Intimidate should not be class skills.
Maybe the Jack-of-all-Trades feat should be part of the bard's class features somehow. Then you could trim down the list of trainable skills, and still give the proper "feel" to the class.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 24, 2008 - 8:21PM
#33
|
|
|
This is the bard's skill list in 3rd edition.(...) I think its safe to say they get pretty much everything. However, Intimidate and heal probably should be removed.
So, basically, you agree with what I said, except for Dungeoneering and Religion. 
Since a bard had access to all knowledges, it would be a crime to not allow him to have access to dungeoneering and religion.
I thought that as well at first, but, really, what kind of Bard would have either Dungeoneering or Religion? Neither Skill is thematically appropriate for minstrels/bards/skalds/jongleurs/etc., and I doubt too many Bards had Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Knowledge (Religion) in 3rd Edition.
As for history as a trained skill, many others have also pointed this out and it will be changed in lieu of arcana.
Actually, I think you should change Streetwise to Diplomacy as an automatically Trained Skill, since all Bard archetypes use Diplomacy, but not all use Streetwise.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead.
- Hávamál
D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald
Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. ;-))
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 24, 2008 - 10:03PM
#34
|
Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2002
|
So, basically, you agree with what I said, except for Dungeoneering and Religion.
I thought that as well at first, but, really, what kind of Bard would have either Dungeoneering or Religion? Neither Skill is thematically appropriate for minstrels/bards/skalds/jongleurs/etc., and I doubt too many Bards had Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Knowledge (Religion) in 3rd Edition.
Actually, I think you should change Streetwise to Diplomacy as an automatically Trained Skill, since all Bard archetypes use Diplomacy, but not all use Streetwise.
Basically.  If i'm a bard who likes to collect stories, it usually covers all aspects of knowledge, including caves, dungeons and even religious rites. A bard who knew stories and tales/monsters of the underdark or the fabled "tomb of horrors". It is very appropriate for them to have it.
It also could apply as a racial theme too, a dwarven bard could be well versed in the hills/caverns.Or say I was a bard who stopped at a a couple monasteries on my travels.
The main theme of a bard to me is meeting people and knowing what was going on in a town. Streetwise covers that very well. If you were a simple juggler you probably weren't well versed in royal etiquette, but you knew where the best place to put on a show was. Rumor gathering is how the bard sometimes gathers information and some of his stories. Thus, History and Streetwise coincide towards this goal better than diplomacy in my opinion.
As an observation, I believe streetwise should be a subset of the diplomacy skill, but thats just me. Considering how it almost seems to be the same thing.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 25, 2008 - 12:45AM
#35
|
Date Joined:
Nov 14, 2005
|
Hmm... while bards don't get Heal in 3.5, in 4e bards (by this post) are leaders. I don't think that having heal as a skill is essential to the bard concept, but I don't think that not having heal as a skill is essential to the bard concept either (I can imagine bards having heal in 3.5 and no one would have minded), and if they're going to be a group's main healer, as per their "leader" role, then giving them access to the skill trained without needing to spend a feat would be nice, since they could then do rituals like raising the dead and such.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 25, 2008 - 12:33PM
#36
|
Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
|
Congratulations on making the EN World front page! Just a note: by posting to this board, you gave this wonderful build to WotC. I actually hope that they do, you created a wonderful build which I hope to use soon either as a DM or as a player.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 25, 2008 - 3:21PM
#37
|
Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2007
|
Really impressive.
This will be getting playtested in my group this coming weekend. One of my players complained since we've switched over to 4th, "I haven't been a bard for two whole weeks, man. I feel like I'm getting stupider". Thanks for "smartening up" my player again.
Good Gaming
Be well in all things,
Rave
Answers never come to those who refuse to face the fact that there are questions. -R. Ryder
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 25, 2008 - 11:00PM
#38
|
|
|
If i'm a bard who likes to collect stories, it usually covers all aspects of knowledge, including caves, dungeons and even religious rites. A bard who knew stories and tales/monsters of the underdark or the fabled "tomb of horrors". It is very appropriate for them to have it.
Hmmm, true, didn't think of it that way.
The main theme of a bard to me is meeting people and knowing what was going on in a town. Streetwise covers that very well. If you were a simple juggler you probably weren't well versed in royal etiquette, but you knew where the best place to put on a show was. Rumor gathering is how the bard sometimes gathers information and some of his stories. Thus, History and Streetwise coincide towards this goal better than diplomacy in my opinion.
Ah, but Diplomacy doesn't necessarily mean courtly etiquette, it may mean only that you know how to talk with people! It would also be a nod to what has always been a staple of the D&D Bard, the ability to influence (for the better) the reactions of the NPCs.
Streetwise also bothers me a bit because I can come up with several types of Bards - Viking Skalds, or any Bard from a barbarian culture, and the old Meistersinger 2nd Edition kit, for example - for whom it would be inappropriate to have Streetwise.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead.
- Hávamál
D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald
Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. ;-))
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2008 - 7:33AM
#39
|
|
|
I think Diplomacy should be the only automatically trained class skill. The other knowledge-type skills, whether they be of religion, arcana, dungeons, nature, the mean streets of the city, or whatever should be the player's choice based on the 'flavor' bard s/he is going for. Thus, I think those choices should be available for training.
|
|
|
|
5 years ago ::
Jun 26, 2008 - 4:48PM
#40
|
|
|
I think Diplomacy should be the only automatically trained class skill. The other knowledge-type skills, whether they be of religion, arcana, dungeons, nature, the mean streets of the city, or whatever should be the player's choice based on the 'flavor' bard s/he is going for.
Yes, that makes perfect sense - an acrobat, a jongleur or something of the sort wouldn't really need to know History, for example.
Thus, the Bard could start with either Bluff or Diplomacy as an automatic Trained Skill, and then choose 4 other Skills amongst his list of Class Skills.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead.
- Hávamál
D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald
Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. ;-))
|
|
|
