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5 years ago ::
Sep 22, 2008 - 2:58PM
#91
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You know, Saric, I have some concerns about the balance of your Bard. It feels like you're cherry-picking other Leaders' best features - the Cleric's healing and buffing and the Warlord's damage and battlefield re-arrangement.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well. Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead. - Hávamál
D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald
Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. ;-))
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5 years ago ::
Sep 22, 2008 - 3:53PM
#92
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2002
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You know, Saric, I have some concerns about the balance of your Bard. It feels like you're cherry-picking other Leaders' best features - the Cleric's healing and buffing and the Warlord's damage and battlefield re-arrangement. A bard cannot heal as good as a cleric due to healers lore. That extra wis modifier adds up after a few heals. Especially when concerning multiple allies. Leaders are supposed to buff, otherwise they aren't leading are they? As of now, I only have two classes to really compare the bard to. So in a sense, they must be somewhat similar to be able to accomplish the same role and knowing how far you can push the envelope when concerning abilities. Otherwise, people will moan and groan when you pick the class much like 3.5. "Another bard? come on we need a cleric!!"
Are some of the powers almost identical? To a degree, yes. Healing Hymn should be on par with the other two leaders. I'm unsure of how you're suggesting a bard is like a warlord in battlefield re-arrangement though.
People don't bat an eye when a warlock deals +1d6 - 3d6 extra damage with warlock's curse just like a ranger's hunter's quarry. They both even have the same other class feature "prime shot". Do people complain when a paladin marks a target?
While I will admit that the taking of a wizard's cantrips might seem as a bit ripping off of the wizard, from a rping and design standpoint, those cantrips fit right up the alley of what a bard feels like. A bard with ghost sound? sounds about right to me. In addition, the bard was always considered to be a jack of all trades. That was how it has been portrayed in the last two editions, and I feel that it would be a disservice if they couldn't come a little close to that now.
If a bard wants to heal, he can heal. If a bard wants to buff he can buff. If a bard wants to fight he can fight, dealing respectable damage. If a bard wants to be sneaky he can do so. If the bard wants to control, he can control. I would say the least effective role the bard can fill is a defender's due to the way the class is built.
The thing is, a bard can't heal more than the cleric, because the cleric will always heal more effectively. Can the bard always give free bonuses just for being near, not requiring activation like a warlord? No, (granted a warlord's features are kinda dull in play) and thats why the bard can't really entirely overshadow the other two classes. The bard's niche is the arcane trickster/buffer.
A bard can never control as well as a wizard, can never defend better than a defender, nor can they do as much damage as a striker.
While I won't say the class is perfect, it is in pretty solid and just requires more polish and loose ends tied up.
Also if you don't mind, can you share some examples so I can see where you're coming from? (sonic weapon is the only other power that comes to mind).
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5 years ago ::
Sep 22, 2008 - 5:53PM
#93
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As a mathematical response to the concern of bardic knowledge not increasing at higher tiers, I have the following data. So basically to sum up your notes in a line or two, DCs scale at 5 per tier just as character bonuses scale at 5 per tier, so either way being a bard, you are always 2 points ahead of the curve ... I could buy into that, maybe.
After looking through AV, there are a couple items, particularly the level 12 Foe Stone, which seems like it can replicate the most useful combat application of this feature at-will, or the Headband of Intellects Level 10 property of +2 to all knowledge checks.
Certainly many uses for knowledge outside of combat exist with the same DCs, but you boil it down, the bard is only 2 ahead of a wizard on nearly any knowledge check, and a wizard with a headband of intellect is equivelant. On top of that the wizard probably has a better Intelligence as a primary ability, and may, depending on build, have a much better wisdom (orb wizard). So it seems much more likely that even given the class ability of the bard, the wizard is just as good with lore as the bard.
To look at it from a different angle, when compairing class features to the Cleric (which I think is closest in comparison to the bard based on role, features and general game play) you have the following:
Cleric vs. Bard Healing Word vs. Healing Hymm (equivelant) Healer's Lore vs. Bardic Knowledge (I think the cleric wins this one hands down) Channel Divinity vs. Bardic Music (equivelant; the cleric has more choices, but is limited based on deity) Ritual Casting vs. 2 Cantrips (I love cantrips, but I think this comes out slightly in favour of the cleric)
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5 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2008 - 7:11AM
#94
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2003
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Very nice work Saric, really awesome :D
I noticed that you made this class the best "group buffer", since a lot of his powers give bonuses to all the allies nearby. You're trying to differentiate it from the cleric (best healer) and the warlord (best tactical leader), am i right?
Just a question tough, why the Ispiring courage chant affects only one ally? In your last version it was a Close burst 5 power that affected all the allies in the area, while now it's a single target spell.
If you want to bring the power more in line with the others Class abilities, wouldn't be better to raise the bonus, something like (+ Car score of the caster?) cause a single target spell should be more powerful and significative than a multi target spell.
Warning Yell (Bard attack 1), I think this power should give an alternative to the saving throw, something like "an Ally that you can see can chose to get +1 to his next attack roll or to make a saving throw", that's because if there's no one affected by a status this power deals just plain damage...
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5 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2008 - 6:38PM
#95
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A bard cannot heal as good as a cleric due to healers lore. That extra wis modifier adds up after a few heals. Especially when concerning multiple allies. (...) Are some of the powers almost identical? To a degree, yes. Healing Hymn should be on par with the other two leaders. (...) People don't bat an eye when a warlock deals +1d6 - 3d6 extra damage with warlock's curse just like a ranger's hunter's quarry. I'm not talking about class features. I'm talking about the powers. For instance, take Improvised Jab, which gives a power bonus to an ally's next attack roll equal to the Bard's DEX modifier. That's nothing, right? After all, it's basically a re-flavoured Righteous Brand. Except Righteous Brand is one of the best buffing powers out there, one that borders so closely on overpowered that even the folks at the Character Optimization board - who almost to a man think paragon multiclassing is worthless - suggest melee builds that paragon multiclass into Cleric just for this at-will. The Warlord has no at-wills like this one. Meanwhile, the Bard also has Accelerated Strike, which deals 3[W] and allows the Bard and his allies to shift as a minor action until the end of the encounter. In a way, it's similar to the Warlord's White Raven Onslaught, arguably better - but the Cleric has no similar level 1 power that allows for anything even close to such a thing. See now what I mean? Your Bard is almost like a combination Cleric-Warlord, with the best powers of both classes.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well. Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead. - Hávamál
D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald
Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. ;-))
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5 years ago ::
Sep 24, 2008 - 1:57PM
#96
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2007
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Saric:
Just got finished trying this class out in all three tiers of play. Nothing short of excellent. The powers worked well, really demonstrating this character's abilities as a Leader Class. It was not over-powered (we found that it fits right in with the "official" classes as written), allowed for great role playing experiences, and not only preserved the balance of the game mechanics, but also had opportunities to shine as an individual character class as well as creating opportunities for the other characters to share the floor.
Outstanding work. I really hope to see more from you in the future.
(It can be noted that the Druid is in playtest currently, but as a main PC in the campaign [we had a side-trek to test this one because it looked like fun and I found a way to fit the story in with the campaign], so a report on how well that class does at different tiers will be delayed).
Thank you muchly for your efforts in building this class and for sharing it with us.
Good Gaming! Be well in all things, Rave
Answers never come to those who refuse to face the fact that there are questions. -R. Ryder
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5 years ago ::
Oct 13, 2008 - 3:34PM
#97
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Date Joined:
Oct 13, 2008
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Cantrips Charming, but I am not certain they are needed (conversely they almost certainly aren’t overpowering)
Bardic music 4 choices seem a bit much at start. Restrained is very powerful. Inspire confidence has always seemed like a silly one to me (Bluff, Bluff, Bluff, the stupid ogre ;-). I would trim it down to 2-3 with a couple extras as feats.
Level 1 At-Will Spellsongs Inciting Strike - Bard Attack 1 – Very Good Improvised Jab - Bard Attack 1 - Very Good Inhibiting Song - Bard Attack 1 – Poor Warning Yell - Bard Attack 1 - Good.
All the powers are within the reasonable range of at wills. As a whole I think their at will selection might be better than it should be though. Making them competitive with clerics merely makes Warlords seem weaker than they already do.
Level 1 Encounter Spellsongs Distracting Shout - Bard Attack 1 - I would eyeball this at a d8 Ghost Song - Bard Attack 1 – If all classes were balanced against clerics they would be tougher than they are. Too good for a will targetter. I would reduce the damage to d6. Critical Strike - Bard Attack 1 – A lot going on, but good. Amplifying Verse - Bard Attack 1 – Overly redundant, 2W no heal would be my guess. Phantom Blow - Bard Attack 1 – Average.
Overall too many powers for first level, and I think a tad above average. Need a true double damage option.
Level 1 Daily Spellsongs Burst of Awe - Bard Attack 1- Poor Accelerated Strike - Bard Attack 1 – Good Immediate Assistance - Bard Attack 1 – Too defendery, and awfully good at that. If I saw a need for a power like this I would at least limit it a bit more. Tasha's Hideous Laughter - Bard Attack 1 – Poor Shadow Image - Bard Attack 1 – Too far below average to be worthwhile. I would say up the damage or make it sustain minor. Grease - Bard Attack 1 – Poor.
Perhaps the weakness of their daily powers makes up for the high quality of encounter and at wills at 1st, I would prefer more across the board balance. Again too many choices at this level.
Level 2 Utility Spellsongs Refreshing Song - Bard Utility 2 – Better than similar powers for no reason I can see. Improvisation - Bard Utility 2 – Good (Perhaps a tad too good) Inspirational Boost - Bard Utility 2 - Good Lively Step - Bard Utility 2 – Good
Nice.
Level 3 Encounter Spellsongs Two powers that daze seem redundant, even if they have different deliveries. I think you default to a d10 more often than you should for damage, that said, looks good.
Bard Daily Spellsongs 5 Glitterdust - Bard Attack 5 – AOE Blindness seems awfully good. Wave of Grief - Bard Attack 5 – Restrained remains too good. I am a bit confused about when the restrained ends as well. I am assuming that Save ends overrides until the end of the encounter. Battle Hymn - Bard Attack 5 – Should the extra limit apply to the hit as well? And is it needed. Sonic Weapon - Bard Attack 5 – Nice
Level 6 Utility Spellsongs Combined Talent - Bard Utility 6 – Really good, perhaps too good (but also cool). Soothing Touch - Bard Utility 6 – More complicated than it needs to be. I would go regain use of second wind.
I think you like until the end of the encounter powers more than the designers think you should, you also tend to overcomplicate some things in the effort to make them more distinct from their origins. In these cases I would lean towards simplicity.
Level 7 Encounter Spellsongs Hold Creature - Bard Attack 7 – Ranged 6? Deafening Blast - Bard Attack 7 – Outside the reasonable power range for this level (aka better than the wizard power of the same level), even more so for a leader type. Tactical Precision - Bard Attack 7 – Is there any basis for a power this good elsewhere? Woof, prior to this level, minor complaints aside, I would allow this class. This is just a bit too much.
Level 9 Daily Spellsongs Dirge of Discord - Bard Attack 9 – We seem to be drifting more out of range as we go up in level. On a 1-5 I would rate this a 7. Whirling Blade - Bard Attack 9 – Again woof. War Cry - Bard Attack 9 – This one I like.
Ok I know that the classic bard was defined by his poorly defined role, but he also wasn’t very good.
I think you need to tone down the controller elements. At the very least powers which are cut and paste from wizard should not then gain extra features. I would lose most of the controller specific elements, keeping just enough for good flavor and a bit of versatility. (Aka you have way too many area attacks for this class)
I think we need to remember that will is the lowest average defense, and so when converting vs. fort attacks into vs. will attacks we should be giving something up, not gaining.
I would look closer to warlord than priest, I am not sure if warlords are underpowered, or cleric over, but balancing against cleric will kill the warlord for good.
I think your "second wind but not" thing is simply complication for the sake of it, it also leads to a bit more bonus in most of these cases than seems warranted.
Ok you have probably guessed I am a critical person. Overall I think I like it. But you need to really consider it against a tight core of classes. Being as wizardy as a wizard and as clericy as a cleric is simply too good. Top that off with dex based melee and I think you are combining too many roles into one, which is of course the classic definition of the Bard, but you aren’t giving up enough for it.
As a side not I think most games place way to much of a premium on versatility, overcharging for it, so I am not saying you must cripple a template to let it be a tad versatile, just that full healing and multiple area powers at virtually every level is too much.
Now that you have read my review you would almost certainly not guess how much I like your work ;-)
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5 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2008 - 5:02AM
#98
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Date Joined:
Sep 24, 2008
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My wife is a Bard nut, she is going to flip when she reads this. Why are you not working for WotC? I think you nailed Bard dead on. So, are you or have you done a sorcerer yet?
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5 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2008 - 1:47PM
#99
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2008
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Wish I had something helpful to say, but all and all you did a fantastic job and should be extremely proud of yourself. I'll be using it in my game without hesitation, and this is the first time I've done such a thing with something I found on a message board. That said, while I agree that the lack of certain classes in 4e is aggravating, they did a good job putting all the typical fantasy archetypes in the new PHB. Much as I love classes like bard and monk, they aren't exactly atypical characters in most fantasy stories. Even classic archetypes like the barbarian and druid can still be made accurately enough with the fighter and cleric classes respectively (though having a "real" version would be rather nice).
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5 years ago ::
Nov 19, 2008 - 8:30PM
#100
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Wow Saric great job. I've always wanted to play a bard, but 3e and 3.5 bard was worthless. Although he was pretty awesome in Neverwinter Nights 2.
I think you nailed it though. Any plans to merge/reconcile your bard with the new official preview in the latest ampersand column?
If your druid is as good as your bard, WOTC needs to offer you a job.
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