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Daknit_Bard_Of_Tarot wrote:

Thank you very much for this. Yes, I, go figure, was dissapointed to see the lack of bard classes (Wotc don't like bards in Magic, either) and was thinking what a task it wold be to make one. Again, thank you.

Suggestion: The voice. Bardic music for my charatcer has always been voice and never a musical instrument. There's the power of poem, soothing lullabye, or an actor's guile. While a bard is a worthwhile performer, there seems to be little room for this path.

Is there a chance to add an errata for "Vocalist?" While singing and "dancing" (swordplay, for example) is nice, bards can be powerful speakers. I would love to help and add to this, but this really is your project. I leave it to you.

I don't think that actually requires an errata, rather an update/addition.

This has been discussed quite a bit already but I'll give you a summary. The Musician suggested Bard build is considered to be just that, singing/playing an instrument.

There is nothing that assumes that this is the only way to describe how a bard's power work. If you really wanted to, you could describe your powers working after making a riveting speech/inspiration to empower your allies.

Remember, a bardic instrument does not neccecarily mean it has to be a musical instrument. A bardic instrument can be whatever the bard needs to do whatever he needs to do. If the bard is a juggler, he could have a magical juggling pin. If the bard is an orator, like you wish him to be, he could have maybe a small speech book wrapped around his neck like a necklace.

However, I would suppose a tree/build of powers solely dedicated to just talking/giving speeches could prove interesting. It would be kind of strange doing so in the middle of combat, but then again so is singing.

gregorypeck]I was wondering about giving the bard the ability to wear chainmail armor, for several reasons:

In 4E, the warlord and the cleric can wear chainmail (and serve similar party roles)

Exalted Armor is designed to be used by clerics/warlords to improve on their healing abilities. Exalted Armor can only enchant chain mail.

Finally, in 3E the bard can use chainmail.

Please tell me your thoughts!

A bard in 3rd edition was proficient with only light armor. It just so happened that in 3rd edition one of the most overpowered armors in the game was also considered to be light. Mithral Chain Shirt and or just plain old chain shirt. Despite being made of chainmail, it wasn't exactly as heavy as full "chainmail". Thats why I chose not to give them chainmail.

Quoted from the 3.5 srd
" Bards are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields)"

The reason I didn't give them shields is beyond me...

Now in 2nd edition, a bard was proficient with chainmail, but not with shields.

Hmm. I'll have to reconsider this.

I was wondering about giving the bard the ability to wear chainmail armor, for several reasons:

In 4E, the warlord and the cleric can wear chainmail (and serve similar party roles)

Exalted Armor is designed to be used by clerics/warlords to improve on their healing abilities. Exalted Armor can only enchant chain mail.

Finally, in 3E the bard can use chainmail.

Please tell me your thoughts![/quote]
A bard in 3rd edition was proficient with only light armor. It just so happened that in 3rd edition one of the most overpowered armors in the game was also considered to be light. Mithral Chain Shirt and or just plain old chain shirt. Despite being made of chainmail, it wasn't exactly as heavy as full "chainmail". Thats why I chose not to give them chainmail.

Quoted from the 3.5 srd
" Bards are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields)"

The reason I didn't give them shields is beyond me...

Now in 2nd edition, a bard was proficient with chainmail, but not with shields.

Hmm. I'll have to reconsider this.

Arius]On the topic of heavy armor I have two thoughts...

Bards focusing on Dex or Int aren't likely to need or use the heavy armor.

But I do think that bards should have comparable armor and weapon proficiencies as the other leader classes, and if they don't, that should be a balacing factor.

Saric, was the missing armor proficiency a concious choice and balancing factor?

Simply saying they aren't likely to use it isn't a balancing factor, and there's no reason to close off particular builds unless it is in order to balance the class against some other option.

For instance a spell focused bard with a high charisma and only an average intelligence might like chain as an option, but a Dex focused combat bard is likely better off with Hide and Dex unless then can afford the feats to pickup Scale or Plate.

You are correct, since I assumed players would have a decent Int score to supplement their AC, I basically waived the notion of using chainmail.

As said earlier, I will strongly consider this, and post my tweak in my next update. Thanks a lot for the input. :D (Buff Bards!!!!!) wrote:

CWestHawk wrote:

I just read through the entire post and I do not see what was removed or why it was in violation of the CoC. If Saric is correct and all he did was delineate what "constructive criticism" was, then I would like to know how that violates the CoC.

It's kinda hard to prevent history from repeating itself if no one knows what the history was. Eh?

If I recall correctly, I didn't call anyone names. /shrug/ I don't even remember what was going on anyways.

Anyways without futher ado,

Update- September 20, 2008: After some free time I finally managed to glance over the bard again and tweaked it a little bit. Among the changes are addition of armor proficiency (chain), removal of the rapier, and an assortment of critical corrections to power attack types. A few powers changed slightly such as bardic music being streamlined and some of them moving to feats. Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

You can get the new pdf at the following site
http://www.filedropper.com/bardrelease32

As a mathematical response to the concern of bardic knowledge not increasing at higher tiers, I have the following data.


All examples assume the bard has the relevant training in the knowledge skill. The assumptions also are based on the phb's most recent update to knowledge dc's

Base dc's Heroic Paragon Epic
Common 10 15 20
Expert 20 25 30
Master 25 30 35

Level 1 bard starting with 16 intelligence (+3) and 12 wisdom
Int based knowledge +5 trained +3 stat, +2 bardic knowledge = +10
Knowledge nature +5 trained +1 stat +2 bardic knowledge = +8

Level 11 (19 intelligence and 13 wisdom)
Int based knowledge = +5 trained, +4 stat, +2 bardic knowledge +5 level = +16
Wis based knowledge = +5 trained, +1 stat, +5 level, +2 bardic knowledge= + 13

A level 11 basic bard can make any int based master knowledge with a passive skill check (he could have done this same feat approximately 3 levels ago or quicker with the skill focus feat.).
With wisdom, he can make any wis based expert knowledge with a passive skill check and is only two away from master. (he could have accomplished this same feat approximately 7 levels ago or quicker with the skill focus feat.)

Level 21 (22 Intelligence and 14 wisdom)
Int based Knowledge = 6 stat, +5 trained, +10 level, +2 bardic knowledge = 23
Wis based knowledge = +2 stat, +5 trained, +10 level, +2 bardic knowledge = 19

A level 21 basic bard can make any epic int based expert knowledge with a passive skill check. He will gain epic master knowledge with a passive skill check by approximately level 24.
With wisdom, he can make any epic wis based common knowledge with a passive skill check, and will gain expert by level 22.

Obviously these assumptions change if the bard is untrained, but with the easily obtainable jack of all trades feat, the bard should only be approximately 3 numbers behind one with training. Which means it is feasible to get a good roll and still get the knowledge check. Due to the math given above, bardic knowledge will stay at a base +2 until I can see a valid reason to change it.