sweet crakers this is awsome. I only have one problem... why cant they choose Endurance as a skill? i think they should be able to for the purpose of long winded songs that require an endurance check ^^
sweet crakers this is awsome. I only have one problem... why cant they choose Endurance as a skill? i think they should be able to for the purpose of long winded songs that require an endurance check ^^
While it may seem the Bard should get it for purposes of traveling and the sort, I don't see the bard as a really "tough" it out kind of class. Which is why currently only the 4 classes who do seem "tough" actually get it. Namely Paladin, Ranger, Warlord, Fighter.
I love this bard :D just one question: the bardic music can sustain? u just mention the sustain in one utility power, in bardic music hability description you dont mentoin that.
Lingering Chorus - Bard Utility 10 Spectral voices continue to echo your song. Daily ✦ Arcane Free action Personal Effect: You do not need to sustain any of your Bardic Music for the rest of the encounter. In addition, the bonus or number of targets for your Bardic Music increases by 1 until the end of the encounter.
Bardic music Once per encounter you can play or sing a Bardic song, inspiring your allies to greater deeds, or confusing your opponents. Regardless of how many different uses you have for Bardic Song, you can use only one such ability per encounter. The special ability or power you invoke works just like your other powers. A starting bard can choose two of the following musical options;
Bardic Music: Countersong - Bard Feature You sing and play at your highest notes trying to mask the sounds of battle. Encounter ✦ Arcane, Implement Immediate Interrupt Close burst 10 Trigger:You or one of your allies is attacked by an effect with the thunder or charm keyword. Target: All allies within burst Effect: Against an effect with the thunder or charm keyword, the target gains resist 5. This effect lasts until the end of your next turn. In addition, if the triggering attack has a lingering effect, the target gets an immediate save to remove the effect. The bonus increases to resist 10 at 11th level, and 15 at 21st level.
Bardic Music: Inspire Courage - Bard Feature You quickly chant a song of bravery, and raise your allies’ morale for a few seconds. Encounter ✦ Arcane, Implement Standard Action Close burst 10 Target: All allies within burst Effect: Target gains a +1 power bonus to attack and damage rolls. In addition, if the target is affected by an effect based on fear it gets an immediate save to remove it. This effect lasts until the end of your next turn. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
Bardic Music: Fascinating Song - Bard Feature A strange but soothing melody erupts from you, enthralling your enemies in their steps. Encounter ✦ Arcane, Charm, Implement Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature within range (2 creatures at 11th level, 3 creatures at 21st level) Attack: Charisma vs. Will. Hit: Target is restrained and can't take attacks against you until the end of your next turn (save ends). If you or your allies attack the target, this effect ends immediately.
Bardic Music: Inspire Competence - Bard Feature A mellow melody motivates your allies to try their best. Encounter ✦ Arcane, Implement Standard Action Close burst 10 Target: All allies within burst Effect: Your allies gain a +2 power bonus to their skill checks until the start of your next turn. The bonus increases to +3 at level 11, +4 at level 21, +5 at level 30.
I love it, honestly I might allow my players to use this in my next campaign.
The only real thing I have against it is that the bard's ability to heal is right up there with a cleric's or warlord's (perhaps even better), a Bard is naturally a support class, so I don't think it should have such a strong ability to heal. Instead of a large pool of healing abilities I think having the bard to make the decision to utilize some of his feats on the healing type to improve his healing abilities would work better for game balance.
But once again, outstanding job, overall it feels just like the core 4E classes.
EDIT: After a quick look at the Cleric class, I noticed that Clerics get a lot more healing abilities then I thought. So perhaps the problem wouldn't be as bad as I thought. Maybe it was just me... hmmm. I think that maybe reducing the bonus healing die size on healing hymn from d6 to d4 would perhaps be enough. Anyone else have a thought about the healing capabilities?
P.S./EDIT2: I also agree with the above guys that the bard shouldn't be able to train every skill but endurance and making diplomacy a class skill instead of streetwise. For intimidate, I was thinking "What about Orc bards?"... Does an Orc aim to be diplomatic (in most cases)... of course not. So I think what should be done is this.
Remove streetwise as a class skill, make it trainable instead. Make diplomacy a default trained skill, give some races (particularly the monster-like races and Dragonborn) the ability to choose intimidate as a initially trained class skill instead of diplomacy if they want, and allow the other to be trainable. As for the other races which are naturally diplomatic, either keep intimidate as a trainable or disallow it as a class skill. (EDIT 5: Ok I didn't realize that Bard's never had intimidate in 3.5/3.0, I was thinking along the lines of like a War Bard (A Leader) being very intimidating because he had a huge army of fierce monsters and a very high skill in intimidate to go along with it. MAYBE making that into a Paragon path which gives you intimidate as a trained skill? Just a thought)
P.S P.S/EDIT3: Still needs Bard specific feats (EDIT4: >< I skipped over the feats thinking they were encounter powers, they almost exactly alike at first glance lol. Explains why the only feat I saw was the Multiclass feat which had different color text. But yea there in there)
I love this bard :D just one question: the bardic music can sustain? u just mention the sustain in one utility power, in bardic music hability description you dont mentoin that.
No, I had determined that a class feature that scaled with class level and could be sustained was overpowered compared to almost every other encounter power in the game. My original draft had it, but for the reasons aforementioned I changed it to the current one.
CoolEdgar wrote:
The only real thing I have against it is that the bard's ability to heal is right up there with a cleric's or warlord's (perhaps even better), a Bard is naturally a support class, so I don't think it should have such a strong ability to heal. Instead of a large pool of healing abilities I think having the bard to make the decision to utilize some of his feats on the healing type to improve his healing abilities would work better for game balance.
EDIT: After a quick look at the Cleric class, I noticed that Clerics get a lot more healing abilities then I thought. So perhaps the problem wouldn't be as bad as I thought. Maybe it was just me... hmmm. I think that maybe reducing the bonus healing die size on healing hymn from d6 to d4 would perhaps be enough. Anyone else have a thought about the healing capabilities?
No, the whole point of being a leader class is to be able to fill a role which is support/heal while having other interesting abilities to bring to the table. To take that away means you pretty much have to include a cleric/warlord in addition to the bard to make it a better rounded party. If you made it d4's why on earth would a bard be taken above a cleric.
P.S./EDIT2: I also agree with the above guys that the bard shouldn't be able to train every skill but endurance and making diplomacy a class skill instead of streetwise. For intimidate, I was thinking "What about Orc bards?"... Does an Orc aim to be diplomatic (in most cases)... of course not. So I think what should be done is this.
Remove streetwise as a class skill, make it trainable instead. Make diplomacy a default trained skill, give some races (particularly the monster-like races and Dragonborn) the ability to choose intimidate as a initially trained class skill instead of diplomacy if they want, and allow the other to be trainable. As for the other races which are naturally diplomatic, either keep intimidate as a trainable or disallow it as a class skill.
You didn't read the pdf. Below is the trained skills of the bard. And below it is the skill list of the bard in 3.5.
Trained Skills: Streetwise (Cha) and History (Int). Choose any three more trained skills at 1st level. Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Arcana (Int), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Nature (Wis), Perception (Wis), Religion (Int), Stealth (Dex), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Cha).
Class Skills The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
I'm going to make history the only trained skill. and allow the other 4 skills to be picked up by the player. If the bard wants diplomacy, he has to choose it from his list. History is one of the only clear-cut things that everyone agrees the bard should have as a baseline skill. As for intimidate being an option, I'll consider it.
The concept of a "Bard" as a "Leader" is good as you have it writen, but for me I see the "Bard" as a "Controler". That is s/he is able to enhance the skills and moral of the group the bard is running with. Also the Bard would be able to "Intice" and "Mezmerize" the opponents the group would come across in there travels. Also IMO Bard powers (those that use music in any form) should not be bound by the instrument the Bard uses, but be more open ended. A Bard can rally the party using two sticks just as easely as using a horn or a small harp.
The concept of a "Bard" as a "Leader" is good as you have it writen, but for me I see the "Bard" as a "Controler". That is s/he is able to enhance the skills and moral of the group the bard is running with. Also the Bard would be able to "Intice" and "Mezmerize" the opponents the group would come across in there travels.
Enhancing the abilities of the party is the purview of a Leader. A Controller is all about creating hazardous terrain, AoE damage, and impeding/moving the enemy around on the battlefield.
Also IMO Bard powers (those that use music in any form) should not be bound by the instrument the Bard uses, but be more open ended. A Bard can rally the party using two sticks just as easely as using a horn or a small harp.
Indeed, and that's how the class as written works. However, the Bard will do better with a +5 instrument than he would with two mundane sticks.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.
The concept of a "Bard" as a "Leader" is good as you have it writen, but for me I see the "Bard" as a "Controler". That is s/he is able to enhance the skills and moral of the group the bard is running with. Also the Bard would be able to "Intice" and "Mezmerize" the opponents the group would come across in there travels. Also IMO Bard powers (those that use music in any form) should not be bound by the instrument the Bard uses, but be more open ended. A Bard can rally the party using two sticks just as easely as using a horn or a small harp.
You obviously didn't read the powers of the class or the new pdf. Despite being a leader, a good majority of the bard's powers involve controlling or damaging multiple opponents in some manner. Glitterdust, Grease, Sound Burst, Whirling Blade come to mind. Basically the bard as written does exactly what you say it "should" do.
The cleric also falls into this category of controller (leader) if you hadn't noticed.
Also in regard to bardic instruments, if you had read the second pdf it states as so.
"Implement Bards make use of instruments to help channel and direct their arcane powers. A bard holding or wearing a magic bardic instrument can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of bard powers, as well as bard paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. Without a bardic instrument, a bard can still use these powers but he or she doesn’t gain the bonus provided by the magic implement.
Depending on the bard’s choice of entertainment or focus, a bardic instrument can range from a musical instrument, storybook to a juggling pin. A typical Bardic instrument costs and functions exactly like a holy symbol. "
Since the bard's implement works just like a holy symbol, it just needs to be held or worn. Just because it says "instrument" does not mean it has to be a musical instrument.
Shadowdancer Path Features Hide in Plain Sight (11th level): When you use an action point to hide, you don’t have to have cover or concealment to make a stealth check. This effect lasts until the end of your next turn.
Does it actually take an action to make a stealth check? I just thought it was part of some other action, like a move action to get behind cover or such. Might it make more sense to just say "When you spend an action point, you gain concealment until the end of your next turn." That way it is also more in line with most other path effects that are "when you spend an AP, you get + to attack, bonus to damage, an extra move action, etc." This way you are free to get easy stealth, and a boost to defenses.
Saric wrote:
Shadow Illusion - Shadowdancer Attack 11 You create a shadow duplicate that stands right next to you after striking. Encounter ✦ Arcane, Illusion Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One Creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 3 [w] + Dexterity modifier. Effect: You create a duplicate of yourself that stands in your square. Until the start of your next turn, all attacks have a 50% of hitting you. Creatures with special senses such as truesight, tremorsense or blindsight are immune to this effect.
So you make an attack, and then also make a duplicate of yourself? But if there's no one adjacent to you, you can't use this? It seems like it would make more sense to just use the effect as a utility power with a minor action. For an encounter power, maybe something along the lines of the anime-style attack of "I throw a dagger at your shadow (vs reflex) and you are immobilized (save ends)." Or if you want to stay similiar to this power (and keep the 12 utility free for a teleport) then maybe more along the lines of "I throw shadow in the target's eyes for damage, and if I hit it also sees multiple of me (until next turn, or until save)."
Saric wrote:
Summon Shadow - Shadowdancer Attack 20 You harness the power of the shadowfell and summon a companion to aid you. Daily ✦ Arcane, Conjuration, Implement Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature adjacent to the shadow Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 4d8+Dexterity modifier damage Effect: You conjure a shadow that occupies 1 square within range. The creature follows your orders and takes its turn at the start of your turn. It can move up to 5 squares and attack once per round. The shadow lasts until the end of the encounter.
The way this is written, it sounds like you attack someone, then a shadow appears. However, I take it to mean that the attack/hit section is to describe the shadow's attacks. And then since it doesn't say otherwise, the shadow gains your dexterity? It would probably be better to phrase this along the line of the wizard power Bigby's Grasping Hands (PHB 164)
So basically you summon a shadow under your control that can move and attack for 4d8+dex once per round for the whole encounter. And requires no concentration from you to maintain. This is waaay overpowered.
It should, at the least, either require a Sustain Standard to maintain it, or else a Sustain Minor and to move it require a move action from you. Alternately, you could instead say that you become a shadow yourself -gaining a basic attack that does 4d8+dex damage, and the insubstantial and possibly phasing qualties. Otherwise, this means that once per day you can essentially become two characters.
Of course, we don't really have any "official" summon-type spells to base it off of, so who knows, summons could end up like this, but it seems to be much more powerful than the other lv20 paragon path dailys...
Does it actually take an action to make a stealth check? I just thought it was part of some other action, like a move action to get behind cover or such. Might it make more sense to just say "When you spend an action point, you gain concealment until the end of your next turn." That way it is also more in line with most other path effects that are "when you spend an AP, you get + to attack, bonus to damage, an extra move action, etc." This way you are free to get easy stealth, and a boost to defenses.
First of all, stealth reads as so. "Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily." Since an action point allows a move, minor or standard I think it actually covers all of them. Perhaps a reword of the shadowdancer's ability like "whenever you use an action point and wish to perform the action stealthily, you do not require cover or concealment."
Would just granting concealment be a tad bit more simpler? Yes and no. The intent is not to give characters a defense boost if they decide to hit and run, rather make sure that if they use the action point to be stealthy, that they will be able to do so in a clear field while being directly observed. I'll consider it.
So you make an attack, and then also make a duplicate of yourself? But if there's no one adjacent to you, you can't use this? It seems like it would make more sense to just use the effect as a utility power with a minor action. For an encounter power, maybe something along the lines of the anime-style attack of "I throw a dagger at your shadow (vs reflex) and you are immobilized (save ends)." Or if you want to stay similiar to this power (and keep the 12 utility free for a teleport) then maybe more along the lines of "I throw shadow in the target's eyes for damage, and if I hit it also sees multiple of me (until next turn, or until save)."
First of all if you didn't know, powers that have an "effect" clause occur regardless if an attack hits or not. Page 59 of the phb. Thus if you wanted to make it pop out even if no one was next to you then you could.
I rather like the idea of a duplicate springing out after you strike, confusing your opponent. Granted I should probably note that area effects should hit the bard and his duplicate.
The way this is written, it sounds like you attack someone, then a shadow appears. However, I take it to mean that the attack/hit section is to describe the shadow's attacks. And then since it doesn't say otherwise, the shadow gains your dexterity? It would probably be better to phrase this along the line of the wizard power Bigby's Grasping Hands (PHB 164)
So basically you summon a shadow under your control that can move and attack for 4d8+dex once per round for the whole encounter. And requires no concentration from you to maintain. This is waaay overpowered.
It should, at the least, either require a Sustain Standard to maintain it, or else a Sustain Minor and to move it require a move action from you. Alternately, you could instead say that you become a shadow yourself -gaining a basic attack that does 4d8+dex damage, and the insubstantial and possibly phasing qualties. Otherwise, this means that once per day you can essentially become two characters.
Of course, we don't really have any "official" summon-type spells to base it off of, so who knows, summons could end up like this, but it seems to be much more powerful than the other lv20 paragon path dailys...
Good example: lower level cleric power. Knights of glory cleric level 19 daily- minor action to attack, move to move. deals 3d10+wis mod on a hit. Average damage = 16.5 + stat mod + implement shadowdancer is 18 + stat mod + implement.
I'm going to lean with its perfectly fine in terms of damage. as for actions, it could be debatable. I'll check it out in playtesting. But considering some area sustains deal damage to multiple targets I'm pretty sure having 1 summon without actions attached to it isn't gamebreaking.
