As first thing, let me apologize beforehand for my bad English :P
As second thing, i really want to compliment to you for your awesome job, i really Love your Bard and I’m actually using it in a Campaign I’m mastering. :D
The Druid now... this is a really good work. I'm actually Creating a homebrew druid myself so i'd like to share my thoughts and ideas with you about this class.
The class i'm building is actually a Striker / Controller hybrid, cause I thought it would be a good idea to create something that will be as similar as possible to what will be the new druid that we'll be able to use since the exit of PHB2.
Doing it this way, if any of my players will be using it, he/she won't be obligated to adapt to a different role (and the group along with him/her).
Now to my thoughts:
1) Your class is somewhat unique, cause it shares not 2, but 3 roles. It's a Leader, but it has a lot of powers belonging to Control and Striking. Doesn’t it make it a bit unfocused? I've read almost all the powers by now, and i found some levels where there is only one power supporting the "leader" side of the class, while the others are more area damage and strikes focused on combat advantage and mobility. If I’d have to guess your class role just by reading his powers, I’d say it is a Controller whit some Leader-ish powers and not the opposite.
It just seems to me as you wanted to create a Controller, but you couldn't leave the old "all around class" like the Druid was in 3.5. I think that if you're building a class in 4E form, you should try to dare more, and leave some characteristics of the old class behind.
That's why I'm trying to create a Controller / Striker, but this is just my little humble opinion
2) The Stats into the 2 builds, Nature's Wrath and Bestial fury, should be the same, and they should be Wisdom, Strength and Dexterity. No classes so far completely ditch the Stat that it's the primary in another build. If you suggest to leave the wisdom score completely, as you do in Bestial wrath, that character won't be able to use 1/2 of the powers in your list, what if a Bestial druid want to get entangle?
As others stated in the posts above mine, choosing an high Dexterity over Constitution will give your character many vantages. An higher Armour class, a higher Initiative score, a better reflex save. What vantages will he be getting with an high constitution? 3/4 Hp more , and 1-2 Healing surges each day. He won't have a higher Temper score, cause it will surely have a better Strength modifier.
Using Dex over Con, will keep the flavour of a no-metal-wearing Druid, while saving his AC score and freeing the "3rd Stat slot" in the Bestial fury build, letting the character to get Wisdom at least as a Tertiary score.
If you're worried about the low HP count, go on to my third point, regarding the Wild shape
3)Your version of while shape it's a bit unsatisfying IMHO. The weapon it's always the same, and there's no difference between the many forms he could actually decide to use (at the same level). This is where our Druids differs a lot, my class is based about combat in animal form, and casting in human form.
The Animal Form is a Daily. What? Why did you limit such an important feature of the class to something that can be used so rarely? Half the Powers in his list have the "Wild shape" tag, but let's say that you make your group to face 8-10 encounters per session, he will be transforming in just ONE of those encounters, and he will surely try to spare the animal form for the big boss of your dungeon/adventure.
This will cause a lot of troubles to a "Bestial Fury" Druid, because his Natures' Guardian ability is based on the wild shape keyword. This will mean that he can't use it for the 9/10 of the time, while a Casting druid can always use his Nature's wrath or Nature's touch power!
It's not just about that. A Bestial Fury Druid HAS TO pick the animal form as a Power, so a Bestial Druid has ot choose if he want to be able to transform OR get a useful buff. To get powerful animal shapes, all his utility slots will be occupied with wild shapes, precluding completely the option to cast buffs for himself or the allies. If he doesn't do so, let's say he picks up only the most powerful wild shape available, he will always be able to transform just ONCE per day.
So... this is how I handled it:
"Wild Shape" is a Class power, just like the Channel Divinity feature of the Cleric and Paladin, (and your Bardic music Power ). It can be used at Will, costs a Minor action to change to animal form and vice-versa, but has one limitation: once you use it and choose a form, you can't transform in other forms until the end of the Encounter. The Wild shape class feature gives some pretty basics forms with combat utility. Others forms, like a "Giant Geco form" will be a Daily utility Power which gives the ability to walk on the walls for a move action, The "Cat form" wil be another Daily Utily that gives a huge boost to stealth abilities but with no combat abilities etc.
At the creation, the Druid picks 2 forms from a list of “Heroic” forms, including Wolf, Black bear, Wolverine, Panther, etc. (all medium animals). Each tier unlocks a new list of “Paragon” and “Epic” forms and he will get one additional form of his choice. Paragon forms include large animals and flying/swimming forms, while the Epic forms are Vegetal and Elemental forms. To get more forms, he has to spend a Feat, getting a new way to use the Wild shape power.
Each form has different characteristics, for example the wolf add +2 to speed and Athletics, and add +1d6 damage per tier to Prone creatures.
The damage of the weapon and his Attack bonus remains the same, in a way pretty much similar to the shape shifting Druid of the 3.5 PHB2, and keeps his bonuses and special abilities. This characteristic is similar to yours, but my class keeps the damage die too, to avoid unnecessary complications. What really changes are the modalities of the attack. To keep the example above, a Wolf form inflicts +damage vs a prone target, so it’s a good idea to get attacks that knock down the target (and he gets some in his list) and maybe it’s good to create some combos with other party members so they can get knocking-down powers too.
Regarding the Bestial fury ability, my class has something very similar, two options for the Casting or Fighting Druid. Since the Wild shape keeps the characteristics of the weapon, it keeps the Competency bonus too, so my “Bestial fury” simply add +1 to Attack rolls when in animal form, and gives the benefits of the Toughness feat to the character, just like it happens for the Ranger’s Two weapon fighting style.
If this seems overpowered, think about the fact that I gave the class 10 + Constitution score starting HP , and + 4 HP each level. Just like the controller he CAN be, but if you get the Bestial Fury feature he will be tougher.
The melee druid is implied to have dex as a tertiary score. Now your idea of allowing constitution does this.
This is assuming an ideal race/build that starts with 16 con and makes sure they make/buy magic armor = to their level allows.
Level 1 +3 armor, +3 con +1 shield = 17 ac Level 11 +5 level, +4 con+3 magic +3 armor +1 shield = 26 ac Level 21 +10 level +6 con +4 armor +5 magic +1 shield = 36 ac Level 28 +14 level +7 con +5 armor +6 magic +1 shield = 43 ac
With +demigod, heavy shield proficiency and +1 armor specialization or shield specialization = 3 more ac. A total of 46 which is identical to paladin at the same level. At the cost of two feats out of 18 (19 if human) and a often picked epic destiny. Not really a sacrifice at all.
A paladin can only have a consistent upgrade to his AC via shield spec or armor specialization which so happen to be feat bonuses which means they don't stack.
Here is a typical Druid AC Numbers with dex as tertiary score (14). Assuming an ideal build/race and spending a total of 2 stat points at level 8 and 16.
Here's a basic rogue example Rogue Level 1 +2 armor, +3 dex = 15 ac Level 11 +5 level, +4 dex +3 magic +2 armor = 24 ac Level 21 +10 level +6 dex +3 armor +5 magic = 34 ac Level 28 +14 level +7 dex +4 armor +6 magic = 41 ac
The druid ousts the rogue until 21 and 28. Would be equal if the rogue starts out with an 18 or takes demigod. A dexterity based ranger would have the exact same ac numbers but be one higher because of hide armor.
A two weapon fighter ranger who values wisdom over dex would actually be in the exact same postion as a druid, as they are supposed to be front-line strikers due to their "range".
All in all, it varies wildly on how the person builds the character's stats. Which can lead to a suboptimal AC if they ignore dex and it isn't spelled out for them.
As first thing, let me apologize beforehand for my bad English :P
As second thing, i really want to compliment to you for your awesome job, i really Love your Bard and I’m actually using it in a Campaign I’m mastering. :D
Glad you like it.
Now to my thoughts:
1) Your class is somewhat unique, cause it shares not 2, but 3 roles. It's a Leader, but it has a lot of powers belonging to Control and Striking. Doesn’t it make it a bit unfocused? I've read almost all the powers by now, and i found some levels where there is only one power supporting the "leader" side of the class, while the others are more area damage and strikes focused on combat advantage and mobility. If I’d have to guess your class role just by reading his powers, I’d say it is a Controller whit some Leader-ish powers and not the opposite.
It just seems to me as you wanted to create a Controller, but you couldn't leave the old "all around class" like the Druid was in 3.5. I think that if you're building a class in 4E form, you should try to dare more, and leave some characteristics of the old class behind.
That's why I'm trying to create a Controller / Striker, but this is just my little humble opinion
Well I did write down the role as Leader/Controller, so yeah. And yes I was thinking of including more powers in the future.
2) The Stats into the 2 builds, Nature's Wrath and Bestial fury, should be the same, and they should be Wisdom, Strength and Dexterity. No classes so far completely ditch the Stat that it's the primary in another build. If you suggest to leave the wisdom score completely, as you do in Bestial wrath, that character won't be able to use 1/2 of the powers in your list, what if a Bestial druid want to get entangle?
As others stated in the posts above mine, choosing an high Dexterity over Constitution will give your character many vantages. An higher Armour class, a higher Initiative score, a better reflex save. What vantages will he be getting with an high constitution? 3/4 Hp more , and 1-2 Healing surges each day. He won't have a higher Temper score, cause it will surely have a better Strength modifier.
Using Dex over Con, will keep the flavour of a no-metal-wearing Druid, while saving his AC score and freeing the "3rd Stat slot" in the Bestial fury build, letting the character to get Wisdom at least as a Tertiary score.
If you're worried about the low HP count, go on to my third point, regarding the Wild shape
See the cleric. If a cleric wanted to be a melee fighter he would or should pick str/cha/con because more surges = more hp. Wisdom is actually a bad stat for him. Now if he wants to focus on melee attacks and wants to blast things at the same time, he should pick wisdom instead of con, or put wisdom as a secondary stat and then charisma.
There is nothing stopping a melee druid from picking up wisdom to blast things if he wants to.
As for the ac issue, dex is something I have been considering instead of con.
3)Your version of while shape it's a bit unsatisfying IMHO. The weapon it's always the same, and there's no difference between the many forms he could actually decide to use (at the same level). This is where our Druids differs a lot, my class is based about combat in animal form, and casting in human form.
The Animal Form is a Daily. What? Why did you limit such an important feature of the class to something that can be used so rarely? Half the Powers in his list have the "Wild shape" tag, but let's say that you make your group to face 8-10 encounters per session, he will be transforming in just ONE of those encounters, and he will surely try to spare the animal form for the big boss of your dungeon/adventure.
For the record, my druid is based off the core 3.0/3.5 druid. Not world of warcraft or the phb 2 one. Druids could only shapeshift a limited number of times per day, not every encounter. I actually prefer it this way, having the druid fight with his/her weapons until a big boss fight showing off his connection with nature.
The problem with allowing shapeshifting all the time is that it makes it ho-hum, boring and unspecial. "Oh the druid is in wolf form again,whatever". If the druid can only do it a few times per day, whenever it does occur, its more dramatic.
And the original design was to make shapeshift into daily attacks rather than utilities but I ran into the problem that people would only pick the shapeshifting ones rather than the normal ones.
This will cause a lot of troubles to a "Bestial Fury" Druid, because his Natures' Guardian ability is based on the wild shape keyword. This will mean that he can't use it for the 9/10 of the time, while a Casting druid can always use his Nature's wrath or Nature's touch power!
This is why I said they are still in the experimental phase. See a few posts up.
It's not just about that. A Bestial Fury Druid HAS TO pick the animal form as a Power, so a Bestial Druid has ot choose if he want to be able to transform OR get a useful buff. To get powerful animal shapes, all his utility slots will be occupied with wild shapes, precluding completely the option to cast buffs for himself or the allies. If he doesn't do so, let's say he picks up only the most powerful wild shape available, he will always be able to transform just ONCE per day.
Shapeshifting isn't something everyone can do. If the druid wants to buff, he'll pick buffs. If he wants to shapeshift he has the option. I don't see any problem here.
So... this is how I handled it:
"Wild Shape" is a Class power, just like the Channel Divinity feature of the Cleric and Paladin, (and your Bardic music Power ). It can be used at Will, costs a Minor action to change to animal form and vice-versa, but has one limitation: once you use it and choose a form, you can't transform in other forms until the end of the Encounter.
The Wild shape class feature gives some pretty basics forms with combat utility. Others forms, like a "Giant Geco form" will be a Daily utility Power which gives the ability to walk on the walls for a move action, The "Cat form" wil be another Daily Utily that gives a huge boost to stealth abilities but with no combat abilities etc.
At the creation, the Druid picks 2 forms from a list of “Heroic” forms, including Wolf, Black bear, Wolverine, Panther, etc. (all medium animals). Each tier unlocks a new list of “Paragon” and “Epic” forms and he will get one additional form of his choice. Paragon forms include large animals and flying/swimming forms, while the Epic forms are Vegetal and Elemental forms. To get more forms, he has to spend a Feat, getting a new way to use the Wild shape power.
Each form has different characteristics, for example the wolf add +2 to speed and Athletics, and add +1d6 damage per tier to Prone creatures.
The damage of the weapon and his Attack bonus remains the same, in a way pretty much similar to the shape shifting Druid of the 3.5 PHB2, and keeps his bonuses and special abilities. This characteristic is similar to yours, but my class keeps the damage die too, to avoid unnecessary complications. What really changes are the modalities of the attack. To keep the example above, a Wolf form inflicts +damage vs a prone target, so it’s a good idea to get attacks that knock down the target (and he gets some in his list) and maybe it’s good to create some combos with other party members so they can get knocking-down powers too.
Regarding the Bestial fury ability, my class has something very similar, two options for the Casting or Fighting Druid. Since the Wild shape keeps the characteristics of the weapon, it keeps the Competency bonus too, so my “Bestial fury” simply add +1 to Attack rolls when in animal form, and gives the benefits of the Toughness feat to the character, just like it happens for the Ranger’s Two weapon fighting style.
If this seems overpowered, think about the fact that I gave the class 10 + Constitution score starting HP , and + 4 HP each level. Just like the controller he CAN be, but if you get the Bestial Fury feature he will be tougher.
Since I didn't make or plan on making a phb 2 druid, I wish you good luck and am looking forward to see your druid when its complete. Thank you again for the feedback.
I'd like to post my Druid, but sadly i'm writing it in Italian and it would be a lot of work to translate it into a passable English :P
anyway, back on topic.
See the cleric. If a cleric wanted to be a melee fighter he would or should pick str/cha/con because more surges = more hp. Wisdom is actually a bad stat for him.
Well, it is sure that a Cleric without Wisdoms is possible, but the point is, is it wiable? look at the Battle Cleric build on the PHB, it suggests to pick Wisdom as the second highest score. A cleric with both strenght and Wisdom can choose his powers from all his list, he's got way more options to costumize his character and maybe find some combination of powers between casting and fighting.
The "Suggested Builds" are not made for expert players, but are intended to guide novices trought the Character creation... a Cleric (or Druid) without wisdom is a char with more weak spots and less options, it's a Playable character, but it should be handled by some expert player who knows what to do.
And... don't you think that you're over-estimating the value of con? barring the 3-4 starting HP, he would just have one or two healing surges more, do you really think that that would be more powerful that casting a Miracle?
For the record, my druid is based off the core 3.0/3.5 druid. [...] Druids could only shapeshift a limited number of times per day, not every encounter.
This is true into the first couple of levels, but by level 20 he could change shape 5 times into his animal form and 3 times into an elemental one. Thinking about the fact that 3.5 edition suppose that players rest every 4 encounters, you can pratically assume that the druid can always shapechange during a combat, even if he used some daily wild shapes to explore or stealth. But your Druid can shapechange 1-3 times each day, in a system that suppose virtually NO limits to encounters, if we can exclude a group with depleted healing surges.
Since I didn't make or plan on making a phb 2 druid...
Err... you did :P (regarding the wild shape) Your wild shape is way more similar to the shapeshifting variant: it doesn't change the base stats, the armor class, it doesn't give the extraordinary abilities of the shape chosen. Just like the PHB2 variant, it just boost some aspects of the druid without really changing him.
The only thing that your Wild shape do differently is to change the base damage dice of the weapon... but why putting a different dice, calling it a natural weapon, and then doing such a complicated thing, like considering a +3 bonus to hit only when using a wild shape power? What about Attacks of Opportunity? They have no Key word, so your wild shaped Druid won'nt ever had a chance to hit with them.
And what about a Druid that choose to get a Feat to get competence, let's say, in Waraxe? Once transformed the damage would be lower.
I'd say... just keep the characteristics, damage and competence bonus of the weapon the Druid is wielding and use it for the Natural attack .
I'd like to post my Druid, but sadly i'm writing it in Italian and it would be a lot of work to translate it into a passable English :P
anyway, back on topic.
I wouldn't mind if its in Italian.
Well, it is sure that a Cleric without Wisdoms is possible, but the point is, is it wiable? look at the Battle Cleric build on the PHB, it suggests to pick Wisdom as the second highest score. A cleric with both strenght and Wisdom can choose his powers from all his list, he's got way more options to costumize his character and maybe find some combination of powers between casting and fighting.
The "Suggested Builds" are not made for expert players, but are intended to guide novices trought the Character creation... a Cleric (or Druid) without wisdom is a char with more weak spots and less options, it's a Playable character, but it should be handled by some expert player who knows what to do.
And... don't you think that you're over-estimating the value of con? barring the 3-4 starting HP, he would just have one or two healing surges more, do you really think that that would be more powerful that casting a Miracle?
Well con is important for a frontal fighter. Take for example the two weapon ranger. If he stays in front, he's going to get hit and lose hp. Since con isn't in his suggested build, those extra surges would be needed especially in a dungeon environment where there typically is a lot of encounters/long day.
If you have a loose adventure with 1-2 encounters per day, the extra surges from con wouldn't be as useful.
This is true into the first couple of levels, but by level 20 he could change shape 5 times into his animal form and 3 times into an elemental one. Thinking about the fact that 3.5 edition suppose that players rest every 4 encounters, you can pratically assume that the druid can always shapechange during a combat, even if he used some daily wild shapes to explore or stealth. But your Druid can shapechange 1-3 times each day, in a system that suppose virtually NO limits to encounters, if we can exclude a group with depleted healing surges.
Then I guess we should just let wizards fly every combat since they could theoretically do it every encounter in 3.0/3.5. Wouldn't that be just fun?
Err... you did :P (regarding the wild shape) Your wild shape is way more similar to the shapeshifting variant: it doesn't change the base stats, the armor class, it doesn't give the extraordinary abilities of the shape chosen. Just like the PHB2 variant, it just boost some aspects of the druid without really changing him.
The only thing that your Wild shape do differently is to change the base damage dice of the weapon... but why putting a different dice, calling it a natural weapon, and then doing such a complicated thing, like considering a +3 bonus to hit only when using a wild shape power? What about Attacks of Opportunity? They have no Key word, so your wild shaped Druid won'nt ever had a chance to hit with them.
Interesting point about the oa's. Phb2 variant was based off shapeshifting at-will. While there might be some similarities, In 4th edition there are 0 powers that change your base ability scores. I wasn't about to start with this class either.
And what about a Druid that choose to get a Feat to get competence, let's say, in Waraxe? Once transformed the damage would be lower.
Then technically he's screwed. Bears don't use axes nor should birds. Now an elemental would look cool with a flaming axe...
I'd say... just keep the characteristics, damage and competence bonus of the weapon the Druid is wielding and use it for the Natural attack .
There is no competence bonuses in 4th. Proficiency bonuses maybe..
As for your suggestion, then a player might as well not even shapeshift in the first place. "Yeah I'm a bear now, but since I was wielding a dagger, I do 1d4 damage with my claw! Rawr I'm strong! Fear me mortals!!!" :D
Alrighty, Saric. I picked through this update in a decently thorough manner and offer my hopefully helpful critique. My last post has been updated to include everything I found.
Your argument makes sense, Saric, but I don’t think you understand my math. Any class can spend a few feats to get up to where a Paladin is. And yes, pursing an Epic Destiny can boost your AC 1 point, but several Paragon Paths do this exact same thing. What I don’t think you realize is how low the Druid’s AC really is. Light armor increases gradually, while heavy armor takes big jumps at +4 and +6.
Here’s how the classes stack up. I’ll assume that each class uses it’s highest armor, doesn’t purchase higher armors, and picks up specialization in their armor near the end of paragon levels.
So, the stats tell us this: Going with the con variant keeps the Druid on the same level as an archery based Ranger – Not the highest, but in the top half. Going with the Chain variant actually makes the Druid identical to a Warlord, and right near the center with his leader brethren. Keeping the druid as it is, though, has her AC bounce between Warlock and Wizard, jumping up to Rogue only once before settling on Wizard.
Looking at my own math now, in all completeness, it seems the fairest to give the class Chain Armor proficiency and a light shield. This edition makes no distinction between wooden and metal, and while flavorful, hide armor isn't what it used to be. Giving the class Chain loses some of the flavor, but hopefully that can be made up with the simplicity of design.
4e isn't about telling you what you can't do. It's about telling you what you can- it's my favorite part about it.
Also - new idea for an at-will.
Thunderbolt A tiny raincloud appears above your enemy, snapping off bolts of lightning and bolstering your allies. At-Will * Primal, Implement, Lightning Standard Action Ranged 5 Target: One enemy Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex Hit: 1d8+Wisdom modifier lightning damage and one adjacent ally receives temporary hit points equal to half your level + your constitution modifier.
After having had the fun of playtesting the Bard in a few side quest sessions, I offered up the Druid as a playtest to my group. One player, having noted the severe lack of Druidry in the PHB jumped right on this one. With party now at 3rd level, there is still much playtesting to be done. I'll give you feedback on this class as we figure out how it works with our game.
For now, though, I will just express my appreciation for your work in putting this class together. At least one DM and one player "out there" are enjoying new game experiences due to your efforts.
Be well in all things, Rave
Answers never come to those who refuse to face the fact that there are questions. -R. Ryder
I loved what you did with the bard class and wouldn't be surprised if aspects of it are used for the official bard.
Now for the real questions. I was wondering if you had looked at the barbarian test play, and if so if you have given any consideration to modifying the way you handled wild shape so that it is more in line with the way that rages are being utilized?
I loved what you did with the bard class and wouldn't be surprised if aspects of it are used for the official bard.
Now for the real questions. I was wondering if you had looked at the barbarian test play, and if so if you have given any consideration to modifying the way you handled wild shape so that it is more in line with the way that rages are being utilized?
Yes, yes I am. But I've been kinda busy, but I'll get around to it soon.
