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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 1:49PM
#81
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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I'm on the side of critical failure = bad for the game simply because the game isn't built to handle them. For critical failures to work they would have to balanced out by critical successes... and the current critical hit system (doing max damage) is nowhere near as good as dropping your weapon, striking an ally or yourself, or granting combat advantage is bad. The bad is much worse than the good so the system works against the players.
This is why I like the "Critical Fumble = Combat Advantage" concept. Quick, easy, and in many cases no more harmful than a max-damage critical hit.
Also, it's what's suggested in the DMG, at page 189, for Fumbles.
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)My 4e Projects
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 1:49PM
#82
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Another example of crits gone bad: In the West End d6 Star Wars game, there's a wild die. If you roll a 6, you roll it again and add the result. Roll another 6? keep going. Roll a 1, you lose your highest die int he rolled dice.
through this system and a combination of my critical fumble and a player's critical hit, a Star Destroyer was blown up by one shot from a fleeing freighter's quad laser (those guns on the Millennium Falcon).
To repeat, because it bears repeating, a QUAD LASER took an IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER from naught to destroyed in one hit... And we were using die multipliers, so the ISD had 10 times more dice to roll!
Dundundun!
Kinda changed my outlook on highly randomized crits in general...
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 1:56PM
#83
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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through this system and a combination of my critical fumble and a player's critical hit, a Star Destroyer was blown up by one shot from a fleeing freighter's quad laser (those guns on the Millennium Falcon).
Heh. Sort of reminds me of the time in Axis and Allies, my transport took out a battleship after a 5 or 6 round combat.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 2:01PM
#84
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Heh. Sort of reminds me of the time in Axis and Allies, my transport took out a battleship after a 5 or 6 round combat.
Or the classic Though Shall Not Pass 1-army stand in Risk, usually in that first Aussie province or Greenland. I am so sad when those plucky little legionaries finally give up the ghost.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 2:06PM
#85
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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Or the classic Though Shall Not Pass 1-army stand in Risk, usually in that first Aussie province or Greenland. I am so sad when those plucky little legionaries finally give up the ghost.
Heh.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 3:28PM
#86
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Here is what we came up with, I was initially against the idea fearing it would slow things down, but I think its proven to be more fun than trouble.
AoE and other multi-target powers that come up with multiple 1's rolled take the lowest of the rolled results.
Each of the hindrances are nice and easy I feel, as they are either resolved instantly (Take the AoO, Put your mini on it's side to signify prone,etc) or only last one round.
NUMBER (1D10) RESULTS OF CRITICAL FUMBLE
1 Major miscalculation: You immediately provoke an attack of opportunity from one adjacent opponent (victim or random)
2 Over-exertion: You over exert yourself causing you to be weakened 1 round
3 Leg-cramp: Your leg cramps up causing you to be slowed 1 round
4 Whoops: Fall prone (can stand up at end of round if move action is still available)
5 Slip and Slide: You first drop and then kick your own weapon, the weapon lands 1D4 squares away in the direction of your opponent
6 Slip, no slide: Drop melee weapon in current square
7 Stumble: You stumble forward and an adjacent enemy slides you one square
8 Trip: You trip and an adjacent enemy gets to slide one square
9 DM Special - Effect occurs based on circumstances of your attack. (Thunderwave knocks you back, The brilliance of Turn undead blinds you for 1 round, etc.)
0 Lady luck smiles: Reroll your attack
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 3:53PM
#87
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2008
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WOW..this has really gotten "deep" lol.Thanks for all your input.Here's the system I think I'm gonna go with:On a natural one,roll to confirm fumble.on a 6-20 nothing happens.rolling a 1-5 results in a fumble.the closer to 1 the confirmation is the more drastic the effect,with a 5 being minor or fluffy and another 1 being possible causing damage to self or allies.that's a range from 1.2% to .25% (if I count it right). Keep in mind that the nature of these things are gonna be according to the DM's reasoning of what could likely occur in a given situation,and remains completely arbitrary.I like to be able to reach in and twerk the scene a bit,and things like this gimme an excuse.
Does this seem at all reasonable? I know some are categorically opposed to the whole idea(I assume your answer to be NO)
Someone earlier commented on the fate point thing.It is nothing like an action or force point.A fate point can be used to get out of,what would otherwise be,CERTAIN DEATH.It's like an extra man,so to speak.I like it b/c it spurs players to acts of heroism,the likes of which many a leathery old survival gamer,would leave to the foolhardy noobs. Just food for thought *shrug*
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 3:59PM
#88
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Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Does this seem at all reasonable? I know some are categorically opposed to the whole idea(I assume your answer to be NO)
I would suggest instead of making it a simple d20 confirm, that you make it an [s]Athletics Acrobatics check so as to ensure that more agile and more experience players avoid critical misses more than novice klutzes.
The DC of the check should be based on how often you want lower level players to critically fail vs. how often higher level characters will fail. I'd also consider dropping the rule altogether when they hit Paragon or Epic tier, as at that point, the characters really should be beyond critical misses.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 4:10PM
#89
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2006
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Couldn't read all the replies so apologies if i am restating someone elses idea.
Our group tooled around with fumbles for some time. Allowing OA, dropping a weapon etc. But found it interrupted the flow a little too much.
Then we decided that meta-reasoning could allow that any critical rolled by either side could be considered either a particularly effrective attack, or an attack made more effective by some error in judgement by the target(ie. a fumble) or perhaps even a bit of both.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 5:41PM
#90
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2002
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The DM and Pcs are on the same side.
Quoted For Truth. I'm glad to see someone actually saying this on the boards for once. (As often as I see DMs on here that seem antagonistic towards players, I see players on here that seem antagonistic towards DMs.)
This is the exact reason that I think critical fumbles shouldn't be used. Too often they turn the game into a player vs DM thing in my experience (YMMV.) The players start to take it personally when the DM institutes the critical miss chart, and things go downhill. We need rules that support cooperative story-telling and roleplay between players and DM, not more division.
Yes, the latest book/release that you don't like is a blatant attempt by Wizards of the Coast to make money off the fanbase. They all are. That's kinda the point of the Free Enterprise system, companies are in it to make money... Spoiler:
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You can't! I tried... and the next night masked men came into my house and beat me until I burned up my ranger character sheet and rolled a scout. They told me... if I ever thought of making a non-essential character that they would kill mitsy..... OH GOD THEY ARE COMING BACK AND ARE FORCING ME TO BUY HEROES OF SHADOWS! SOMEONE STOP THEM PLEASE!
Your DM is your friend. He's not trying to screw with you, or dick you around. Play your character how your character would act. Accept that your character won't always be able to do what he's best at, but also know that as a goddamn HERO, he's gonna try to do his best at what he can do.
Roleplay your goddamn character, make the decisions he would make, and roll appropriately. Everything will be fine.
But filling a post with vitriol, hate-filled comments, like "these people should be fired", swearing at us or other ambiguous members of the company - there really is no reason for that. Please share your feedback respectfully, and consider how you would share your ideas if this were a face to face conversation between real people, not faceless names on a screen.
If you see me posting in a thread about editions or Essentials (that isn't simply a rules thread or similar) remind me that I'm trying to stay away from them. (My blood pressure will thank us both.)
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