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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:12AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Thanks,McThorin.I really do use it as a dramatic tool though,I'm not just out to screw the PCs.How many times in film do we see the hero trip and fall,and his weapon or magic Item or whatever goes sliding across the floor.He then has to negotiate danger to get to it,or an ally picks it up and throws it to him at a crucial moment etc...
Since we are talking about house rules anyway....I use another one -Fate Points-it's carried over from Warhammer fantasy.It's basically a get out of death free card.It represents the fact that the PC's are destined for something more.If at any point a character is dying he/she may spend a fate point and I as DM must arbitrate a reason for that character to survive with life and limb.A mortal cut hits the side of the helmet KO'ing him instead,or falling of the mountainside he lands in a Roc nest etc...each player starts w/ one pnt.So you see...I do have some mercy.
I think they're a good idea, but with how easy it is to revive a knocked out PC, I'm not sure they're necessary. If at least one PC isn't knocked out, I don't think it was a very hard fight.
In terms of a fate point or Force Point (Star Wars) type of mechanic, I think 4E's action points work really well.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:22AM
#22
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My own personal anecdote about critical misses (specifically, with random effects), and why I hate them:
A few years ago, I played in a 3.5 campaign where the DM (a great guy, generally) decided to included his own homemade critical hit and miss charts. Whenever you made a critical hit or miss, a random effect happened. He also removed the confirmation roll, so you had a 10% chance of critting one way or the other.
This led to really annoying situations in combat, such as:
* One player falling over, hitting his head, and being unconcious for d6 rounds (which ended up being the entirety of the fight).
* Same fight, one of us hamstrung the big guy, giving him Dex. attribute damage, but no hitpoint damage. (As an aside, one of the reasons I like 4E is that you generally do damage when you hit someone, as well as a condition).
* A giant hell-hound being instantly killed in a single shot from an untrained sorcerer taking a shot with a crossbow (only because he was out of magic missiles at the time).
* The cleric missed a wolf, and hit the friendly no-name NPC beside him for triple damage, instantly killing him.
* And the most disappointing: A fairly tough NPC, who was supposed to be a tough mid-boss fight, hitting himself with own flail only two rounds into the combat, for double (or was it triple?) damage, clobbering himself, leaving us to merely mop up.
Those are just the ones that I can remember off the top of my head. In not one of these situations did we, the players, think "Cool!". We may have laughed sometimes, sure, but we all facepalmed at how frustrating the charts were. At least twice, as above, the charts made hard combats into trivial non-issues, which really frustrated the DM, but he refused to give up on them.
So, anyways, my suggestion concerning critical misses: DON'T.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:47AM
#23
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I'll chime in here with another vote against them. In one battle with a critical fumble table I had my character's chainmail armor, a relic of Ares himself, "slip a buckle and fall off." Say what? Later, that same combat, the monk in the party critically failed and hit himself in the head. For 4x the normal damage, maximized. Not cool. Certainly not real.
In real combat, if you lunge and leave yourself wide open, you aren't a trained profesional, you're an amature hack playing at being a fighter. In real close combat, it's a game of inches, and a mistake tends to leave a miniscule opening, not some huge easily exploitable opening.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:49AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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I don't use it for comic relief mind you...extra grit.It's funny when the monsters fumble,but the pc's,not so much.But in combat people sometimes make bad mistakes,get weapons knocked out of there hands,slip on blood,trip,overextend themselves....friendly fire.I try to be fair but sometimes "S**t Happens".I allow a recovery roll(fumble confirmation).
I agree. The group I play with has it. If someone rolls a 1, they get a dex check to get an 11 or higher, if they get it, they recover. If they miss it, they have a minor mishap from a chart that the DM has. If the result is a second 1, then it's a major mishap.
In my games, a 1 is automatically a fumble, and I'll determine what happend depending on what is happening at the moment of the fumble. A second 1 will make it worse, a third 1 even worse, and so on.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:50AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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I'll chime in here with another vote against them. In one battle with a critical fumble table I had my character's chainmail armor, a relic of Ares himself, "slip a buckle and fall off." Say what? Later, that same combat, the monk in the party critically failed and hit himself in the head. For 4x the normal damage, maximized. Not cool. Certainly not real.
Well, that's just stupid. The mishaps need to make sense, or else they detract from the game.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:55AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Well, that's just stupid. The mishaps need to make sense, or else they detract from the game.
You know, there's really two things being argued here:
1. Are critical fumbles a good idea at all.
2. How stupidly horrific can critical fumbles be, and isn't that really, really stupid.
Just because you allow critical fumbles and the possibility of hitting an ally, doesn't mean it has to be for 5x kamehameha damage every time someone roles a 1.
Still allinall, though, players don't seem to like 'em, even when they think they're going to.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:57AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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You know, there's really two things being argued here:
1. Are critical fumbles a good idea at all.
2. How stupidly horrific can critical fumbles be, and isn't that really, really stupid.
Just because you allow critical fumbles and the possibility of hitting an ally, doesn't mean it has to be for 5x kamehameha damage every time someone roles a 1.
Still allinall, though, players don't seem to like 'em, even when they think they're going to.
You're speaking for a lot people you have no right to speak for with that statement. I know of MANY players who DO like them. If you revise your statement to be "Still allinall, though, SOME players don't seem to like 'em....", then it would be a correct statement.
I do agree, though, that it doesn't have to always be hit ally for some huge amount of damage. That should be reserved for situations where 1) it makes sense and 2) where the person has rolled 2 or more 1's in succession. Basically, it should almost never happen.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 9:58AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Dec 24, 2007
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I've always been fascinated by the fumble tables that make hitting an ally - or yourself - a possibilty because of the "realism" or "grit" these silly ideas add. How is shooting yourself with a longbow anything but comic? What about impaling yourself with a 6' long spear (somehow)? This is just nonsense. It doesn't make the game grittier at all. It makes it silly. And so does hitting an ally. That is certainly a possibility in close-quarter combat with blades and arrows a plenty flyin' around, but let me ask this question: If every 20 or so attacks, your "pal" hits you instead of the enemy, why in god's name are you still adventuring with this inept (or malicious) fool? After all that training, he still can't tell who he should be stabbing. What idiot would willingly travel with "friends" like that? None. So, if you like fumbles for "realism" or "grit", you need to take another look at your decision. If, however, you play for comedy, you're all good.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.Section Six Soldier Front Door of the House of Trolls If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 10:00AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2001
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First of all, you do not need to have explicit critical fumble tables in order to describe something cinematic. If say a monster attacks and misses and then the PC attacks and crits, you can just describe the action as the the monster misses and is off balance and you take advantage of the situation an drive your strike home. Just pretend a critical fumble after a miss as pretty much like a critical fumble followed by a normal hit on the counter attack. It's faster and allows for the DM to use his creativity rather than having to consult a chart and use what's there.
If you have a critical fumble chart that includes the following: falls down, loses weapon, grants combat advantage, is hobbled (slowed), cannot move. Well, there are actually powers and actions that actually do these things. Why not just have the player or monster use powers and actions that actually try to impose these conditions? If you want to knock someone down, use Spinning Sweep. If you want to disarm the target, use Exorcism of Steel. Do your players want to just attack and hope that something cool randomly happens when your opponent fumbles, or do your players want to actually do something specific that is cool? I think players will have more fun if they have control of the effect they impose. 4E has many powers and actions that can do cool things on purpose. Even 3E had them as well.
As someone already mentioned, critical fumbles penalises players who use powers and actions that attack multiple targets. These powers and actions are really cool. Critical fumbles end up penalising players for using cool powers because they now get a higher chance for something uncool to happen to them when they use a really cool power.
Here's my experience with using critical fumbles:
At first, they were cool. It's funny that when the orc attacks me, fumbles, bite's his tounge (this was on the chart) and takes damage himself. It's funny when I make an attack and skip and fall on my butt.
Then after a while, the novelty wears off. Playing an adventure with a broken hand or broken bow is just not fun. All you're doing is trying to stay alive and not really accomplishing anything.
After realising how unfun this is, I went to try to create a new and improved critical fumble system that will put the fun back in. I spent hours doing the analysis and trying to balance things amoungst all type of combattants (ranges, melee, casters, single target attacks, multi-target attacks).
In the end, I made a breakthrough. :lightbulb My conclusion was that critical fumbles suck. When I started playing without critical fumbles, no one complained. When a player rolls a 1 and I tell them there is no critical fumble, they have a big sigh of releaf. They're glad that their weapon doesn't break or is not lost. We continue and everybody has fun without the bitter memories of those critical fumbles. The lack of critical fumbles do not make the games I played in less fun.
If your players enjoy or want to play with critical fumbles, go ahead. Then try a few games without them and see which people prefer.
<\
\>tuntman
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4 years ago ::
Dec 02, 2008 - 10:02AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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I've always been fascinated by the fumble tables that make hitting an ally - or yourself - a possibilty because of the "realism" or "grit" these silly ideas add. How is shooting yourself with a crossbow anything but comic?
It isn't, but it is possible to cut your leg or foot. People slip in combat. Arms get hit in mid swing by limbs and other things, cause swings to go wild. It DOES happen, both in RL and in fantasy games with these sorts of house rules. It just shouldn't happen often, and only with a weapon that makes sense.
If every 20 or so attacks, your "pal" hits you instead of the enemy, why in god's name are you still adventuring with this inept (or malicious) fool?
Which is why it shouldn't be possible hit yourself or an ally unless you roll 2 or more 1's in a row. That and there should be several effects for 2 or more 1's, and most of them should not be hitting yourself or an ally.
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