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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 12:18AM
#61
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I dont have Adventurers Vault, and I dont know if its magic items are balanced. They havent been tried-and-true in lots of real gameplay yet.
But say we use it to guage the power of a cantrip.
The "Hedge Wizards Gloves" give Mage Hand and Prestidigitation. However its considered a 4th-level magic item. (Not first level.) Moreover, having these powers permanently would be like the permanent expenditure of a magic-item body slot. So to have BOTH the body slot AND the cantrips is even more valuable. And in principle, having a permanent ability - as opposed to being dependent on a magic item - is also more valuable. And it costs money that could have been spent on another magic item. So the value of the magic item itself is also a value.
Point-blank, its not even thinkable for a Nonwizard to have cantrips At-Will at low levels - in addition to all the powers the Nonwizard would normally have.
The following feats would be thinkable. The idea you can SWAP a class power for a cantrip is reasonable. The idea you can get a "demo" cantrip as an Encounter power is reasonable. The idea you can wait until higher levels is reasonable.
Getting all cantrips when taking Wizard as a Paragon Path is reasonable, both because of the high level, and because of the investment in the Wizard class which is an opportunity cost.
Maybe I could live with a Paragon feat that grants one cantrip to those who have the Multiclass feat.
The fact players want cantrip powers is itself proof cantrips are valuable.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 12:27AM
#62
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Can a feat simply grant the Clerics class feature Healing Word? No. The multiclass feat only grants a demo of it. Once per DAY.
Can a feat simply grant the Wizards class feature, a cantrip? No. The feat would only be a demo: once per Encounter.
But maybe at higher levels, a feat that granted one full At-Will cantrip wouldnt be so bad for characters who have already invested in the Wizard multiclass.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 12:58AM
#63
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The one reason I would say no to feats that grant cantrips is the Gnoll feat that grants ghost sound. Apparently to the developers, the ability to have one cantrip was enough to make it an exclusive racial ability. I don't see any of the other cantrips being any less powerful, or likely to be anything less than a race(or class)-exclusive ability.
That said, I've always argued that one of the ways they could power up paragon path multiclassing was to grant a class feature when you reach level 11 and decide to do so. Being granted cantrips would, in my opinion, be right with the power level of such a transition.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 2:09AM
#64
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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If a Wizard can do it for free, then there is no reason to limit other characters from accessing those abilities.
This is key, I think. This is not a matter of "how powerful" these mechanics are, but a matter of opportunity cost, specifically a feat.
- Currently, you can get two cantrips by wearing a pair of gloves (840 gp).
- A gnoll can acquire a cantrip by virtue of their race, regardless of their build.
Now would a feat (with the Arcane Initiate feat as a prerequisite) that grants four cantrips be broken, considering the investment? I don't think so, but, hey, I'm no game designer.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 2:28AM
#65
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Date Joined:
Feb 21, 2007
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This is key, I think. This is not a matter of "how powerful" these mechanics are, but a matter of opportunity cost, specifically a feat.
- Currently, you can get two cantrips by wearing a pair of gloves (840 gp).
- A gnoll can acquire a cantrip by virtue of their race, regardless of their build.
Now would a feat (with the Arcane Initiate feat as a prerequisite) that grants four cantrips be broken, considering the investment? I don't think so, but, hey, I'm no game designer.
not sure about broken, but it would be better then equal level feats I think.
I did like the idea of switching a class feature as a benifit of paragon multiclassing though
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 2:53AM
#66
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The cantrips ARE the Wizard class features.
The class doesnt have anything else except for Ritual Caster which really is a feat, and an implement feature which actually sucks (except for the accidental Orb cheese at Epic levels). Regarding implements a +1 magic wand - which you really can buy at 1st level is much better than the class feature. And you dont even need the feature to use the wand. For example, a Staff Wizard can still use a magic wand. These features arent powerful.
The designers created cantrips to be the Wizards potent class features - and they are!
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 2:56AM
#67
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it would be better then equal level feats I think.
Exactly, cantrips would be way better than any other feat.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 3:00AM
#68
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Moreover, having these powers permanently would be like the permanent expenditure of a magic-item body slot. So to have BOTH the body slot AND the cantrips is even more valuable.
But is it more valuable than having BOTH the feat slot AND the cantrips? What if you get only a single cantrip per feat?
The fact players want cantrip powers is itself proof cantrips are valuable.
The question is: Valuable for what?
If a player who already was one of the few who had his PC actually carry and using soap in 3.x (I have seen enough who never bought soap) and several noble outfits (instead of magic items like the rest of the PCs, because the description says you don't wear the same noble outfit more than once) just wants the "clean myself" function of prestidigitation, is it really a power advantange? He just wants it because otherwise there's no way his PC would ever enter a stinking sewer or any other gross environment
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 3:04AM
#69
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Mrt: What if you get only a single cantrip per feat?
What if you get any at-will power per feat?
What if you get the Healing Word power per feat?
What if you get a Channel Divinity power which can be cast as a separate power from the other Channel Divinity options - per feat?
What if you get the Fighters Combat Challenge at will per feat?
What if you get the Paladins Divine Challenge at will per feat?
What if you get the Rangers Two-Blade Fighting Style per feat?
What if you get the Rangers Hunters Quarry per feat?
What if you get the Rogues Artful Dodger per feat?
What if you get the Warlocks Eldritch Blast per feat?
Oh wait. You cant.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2008 - 3:06AM
#70
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Oh wait. You cant.
Because all of them are MUCH more powerfull than any cantrip. With all said, I wouldn't be suprised to see exactly such cantrip feats in the upcomming splatbooks.
There were people just as adamantly opposed to the idea of a +3 1d12 fullblade as they claimed it would be too much powercreep and make the defenders step on the toes of the strikers.
WotC not only made a +3 1d12 fullblade, they even added high crit on top of it for free
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