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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 9:30PM #31
jimthegray
Date Joined: Feb 21, 2007
Posts: 2,095

Haldrik wrote:

I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?

If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!

Situationally, these cantrips are powerful, game-breaking spells.


pretty sure it was at will, I know the aticle said to make sure the dm was ok with the feat

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 9:32PM #32
jimthegray
Date Joined: Feb 21, 2007
Posts: 2,095

Awesome_Dude wrote:

I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.

Alternative viewpoint: Butcher's Lure is a horrible feat. Nobody in their right mind would take it if they were trying to optimize their character.


when I get a chance to make a gnoll I will most certianly take it.
ghost sound is vastly useful.
not every great ability is directly tied to combat & ghost sound has many useful uses. ,,, SPOCK!!! SPOCK HELP ME

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 9:32PM #33
Tectuktitlay
Date Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 1,223

Haldrik wrote:

I tend to evaluate powers by their combat potential, but I agree, Ghost Sound is truly awesome.


I don't, because D&D is a roleplaying game, not a pure combat simulation game. There are too many occasions in an RPG in which combat doesn't even come up, even with a premade adventure or LFR-type of scenario, since the players can all choose to do something completely outside of the realms of combat that a DM isn't entirely prepared for. But the number of times that Ghost Sound might be useful? Oooh, a whole lot more often in my experience.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 9:37PM #34
jimthegray
Date Joined: Feb 21, 2007
Posts: 2,095

Tectuktitlay wrote:

I don't, because D&D is a roleplaying game, not a pure combat simulation game. There are too many occasions in an RPG in which combat doesn't even come up, even with a premade adventure or LFR-type of scenario, since the players can all choose to do something completely outside of the realms of combat that a DM isn't entirely prepared for. But the number of times that Ghost Sound might be useful? Oooh, a whole lot more often in my experience.


for those of you that do not grasp the usefulness of ghost sound, think on this

rng 10
1 object or unoccupied sq
anywhere from whisper to loud yelling or fighting.
nonvocal sounds can be created , if whispered can be quite enough that only people by the target or sq can hear it.
can anyone here honestly not think of a ton of great uses for this?

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 9:42PM #35
Awesome_Dude
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 2,340

Haldrik wrote:

One feat for all cantrips? At Will? NO WAY!

EACH cantrip - at the very least - is as powerful as a Utility power.


Not even close.

The fact its At-Will makes it BETTER than an Encounter or Daily Utility.


No, the fact that it's at will makes it usable more often than an encounter or daily power. It has no bearing on the magnitude of the mechanics within the power.

Feats arent powerful. A feat cant get an extra Encounter or Daily Utility power - neither can it get a cantrip.


Yet there's plenty of instances to prove you wrong. The Wizard multiclass feat gives you a free at will power as an encounter power. At least that power has a reasonable combat application (most notably multimarking). The only real strength of the feat I'm proposing is that it allows you to take Wizard paragon paths or multiclass further.

Maybe a feat (without a power swap) could let a character choose one cantrip as a Daily - but even that Id have to think about more carefully.


DAILY? That is the most arbitrary thing I've ever heard.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 10:00PM #36
Haldrik
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 9,564

AwD: DAILY? That is the most arbitrary thing I've ever heard.


LOL! You obviously havent been in a campaign where players habitually abuse cantrips. Its almost a sport.

Think about it. Prestidigitation alone can ignite fires at will, create a brief facial disguise, vanish an item during an inspection, and so on and so on. One single cantrip can do all of this and much more. At Will.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 10:03PM #37
Haldrik
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 9,564

AwD: The Wizard multiclass feat gives you a free at will power as an encounter power. At least that power has a reasonable combat application (most notably multimarking).


OK, one At-Will cantrip as an Encounter power, is probably thinkable. But it would have to happen AFTER the player has already invested in the Wizard Multiclass feat. In other words, the cantrip feat would have to have the Wizard Multiclass feat ("Arcane Initiate") as a prerequisite, like the other Multiclass power swap feats do.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 10:08PM #38
Awesome_Dude
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 2,340
Some cantrip ******ry I'm imagining right now:

Ghost Sound:
1. Cast Ghost Sound to lure the gnoll away from the gate.
2. Run in and free the food.
2a. Run in and get beat.

Congratulations! You have used a cantrip where a rock would have done the same job!

Light:
1. Cast Light.
2. You can now see.
2a. You can now see the gnoll standing one foot away from your face.

Congratulations! You are no longer at a disadvantage that could get you killed and thus have less chance of dying and thereby having less fun!

Mage Hand:
1. Cast Mage Hand.
2. Move chair.
3. Sit down.

Congratulations, lazy-ass! At least you're not getting beaten by a gnoll!

Prestidigitation:
1. Cast Prestidigitation.
2. Sparks flare up in the gnoll's face.
3. Get beaten by the now angry gnoll.

Congratulations! You have overestimated the combat value of Prestidigitation! It cannot, in fact, blind anything.
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 10:14PM #39
Awesome_Dude
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 2,340

Haldrik wrote:

LOL! You obviously havent been in a campaign where players habitually abuse cantrips. Its almost a sport.


Correction: I've never been in a campaign that broke the rules by allowing cantrip abuse.

Think about it. Prestidigitation alone can ignite fires at will, create a brief facial disguise, vanish an item during an inspection, and so on and so on. One single cantrip can do all of this and much more. At Will.


Player's Handbook]Nothing you create with this cantrip can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder another creature’ wrote:

Nothing you create with this cantrip can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder another creature’s
actions. This cantrip cannot duplicate the effect of any other power.


So no, you can't set creatures on fire, you can't disguise yourself (changeling racial power, no duplication, etc.).

Making an item vanish is a big freaking "So what?" for me. The Wizard can do it for free.

Haldrik wrote:

OK, one At-Will cantrip as an Encounter power, is probably thinkable. But it would have to happen AFTER the player has already invested in the Wizard Multiclass feat. In other words, the cantrip feat would have to have the Wizard Multiclass feat ("Arcane Initiate") as a prerequisite, like the other Multiclass power swap feats do.


No, you're being arbitrary again. I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. The rules forbid basically any abuse you could ever think of, and what you're suggesting is horrible from a balance perspective (and I mean horrible; I don't use the word lightly).

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 10:20PM #40
Haldrik
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 9,564
AwD, if theres a Gnoll outside the house, and a Gnoll inside - depending on the extenuating abilities - you could use ghost sound to make one Gnoll insult the other, and have them kill eachother. Or you could simply set their house on fire. Or whatever. There are soooooooooo many things you could do with the right cantrip for the right job.

You could even kill one Gnoll guard, dress up in its armor, wrap a cloak around your body, and use prestidigitation to disguise yourself as a Gnoll (as a sustainable minor action). Even tho the disguise wouldnt survive scrutiny, you could still get to where you need to be.

You can create an image out of nothing. A rudimentary mask.
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