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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 8:35PM
#21
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I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.
I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.
Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, then Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 8:42PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Feb 21, 2007
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Conceded based on the same reason as the Tactical Warlord (high Intelligence).
I had not actually thought about mixing it into a tac warlord, but that could be fun
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 8:44PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Feb 21, 2007
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I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.
I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.
Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, then Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.
the gnoll article has ghost sound as a possable gnoll feat, i do not see why one could not have the individual cantrips as individual feats
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 8:49PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2008
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I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.
I agree with JmG, cantrips are highly abusable. Weirdly, cantrips are just as useful at Epic levels as they are at Heroic 1. Besides being flavorful, theyr simply good Utility spells.
Id have to say the most powerful cantrip is Mage Hand, then Light, then Prestidigitation, the Ghost Sound, but theyr all potent - especially At-Will.
Considering that there are TWO magic items that give out two cantrips each, one of which doubles the range of cantrips (!!!), with both being low level, and neither coming remotely close to unbalancing the game, it isn't necessary to force a character to trade an at-will for cantrips. I think a simple multiclass feat that gives you two cantrips, in full, is more than sufficiently balanced. Three feats, and you get one skill, one at-will-as-an-encounter power, and all four cantrips, is totally not going to break the game. Sacrificing an at-will attack power is way too high a cost for cantrips, as cool as cantrips are. Two feats, plus a multiclass feat, for one full middle-tier class feature seems eminently fair to me.
As for the order of power of feats, wow, I must heartily disagree. I'd say Mage Hand and Ghost Sound are tied for first, then Prestidigitation, then Light. Ghost Sound is soooo powerful as a roleplaying device, and is incredibly versatile in a huge variety of non-combat situations. As a distraction, as a means of communication in dangerous areas, as a way to bluff your way out of a situation, and much more, Ghost Sound is simply awesome! :D
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 8:51PM
#25
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JmG: the gnoll article has ghost sound as a possable gnoll feat, i do not see why one could not have the individual cantrips as individual feats.
I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?
If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!
Situationally, these cantrips are powerful, game-breaking spells.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 9:03PM
#26
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The Light cantrip is also extremely powerful. It allows virtually infinite illumination - as a minor action - WITHOUT REQUIRING THE USE OF THE OFFHAND - to carry a torch or a lantern!
For some characters, that extra free hand can deal significant damage in combat. Also, the off hand can carry an Orb, can give a Swordmage a +3 AC, or so on.
Light is a powerful spell.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 9:15PM
#27
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Whos the poster that tweaks the Paragon Multiclass system? Rijik.. Rikij.. ?
Anyway, he proposes that characters that take Wizard for their Paragon Path should also get all the cantrips. Thats reasonable in every way.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 9:16PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2007
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I agree with AwD, getting a cantrip feat after getting the Wizard multiclass feat seems fine. Maybe give-up one At-Will power for all four At-Will cantrips? Maybe give up one Utility power for one At-Will cantrip? Im not sure what the exact value is yet.
I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.
I didnt notice that. Could the Gnoll get Ghost Sound At-Will?
If so, Ghost Sound is really too powerful for a feat. I consider GhS the least powerful of the four cantrips, but even Ghost Sound can become broken. It can completely break the game, simply by misdirecting a powerful threat away!
Alternative viewpoint: Butcher's Lure is a horrible feat. Nobody in their right mind would take it if they were trying to optimize their character.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 9:21PM
#29
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Tct: Ghost Sound is soooo powerful as a roleplaying device, and is incredibly versatile in a huge variety of non-combat situations. As a distraction, as a means of communication in dangerous areas, as a way to bluff your way out of a situation, and much more, Ghost Sound is simply awesome!
I tend to evaluate powers by their combat potential, but I agree, Ghost Sound is truly awesome.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2008 - 9:29PM
#30
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AwD: I meant giving all of them as part of a single multiclass feat. Meaning you take one feat, get four cantrips and count as a Wizard for purposes of feats and paragon paths.
One feat for all cantrips? At Will?  NO WAY!
EACH cantrip - at the very least - is as powerful as a Utility power.
The fact its At-Will makes it BETTER than an Encounter or Daily Utility.
Feats arent powerful. A feat cant get an extra Encounter or Daily Utility power - neither can it get a cantrip.
Maybe a feat (without a power swap) could let a character choose one cantrip as a Daily - but even that Id have to think about more carefully.
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