Check the racial power for the Doppelganger race, or any number of utility powers without combat utility (Astral Speech, Foil the Lock, Beguiling Tongue, Ambassador Imp, Disguise Self), or the entire ritual chapter for an entire list of things that prove that the game assumes that noncombat abilities have relevance.
Did I only say out-of-combat? No, I specifically noted skill challenges. It was in the part of my post that you quoted!
I've already gone through the Rogue's and Wizard's utility power and the ones you cited only strengthen my case that cantrips suck majorly. They all give mechanical benefits, except Ambassador Imp, but that power also sucks. Cantrips give none whatsoever.
Good statement for some inflection time. If you aren't going to take anyone else in a discussion seriously, it's probably a safe assumption that you yourself have nothing serious to contribute either.
No, that's just vindictive and irrational. I look at the content of each post, nothing else. If you choose to ignore me for taking the discussion seriously enough to not validate all the feel-good "we're all winners!" crap that inevitably surfaces on an internet forum, that's your problem. But don't pretend like you're returning the favor.
So the fact that Fey Step only ever teleports you 5 squares from beginning to end of your career (without the assistance of enhancement) or the fact that Combat Challenge always only marks creatures you target with an attack for your entire career means that they become more valueless over time? 20 pounds makes up a large number of objects in the PHB, and a good number of things overall. I should think that 20-pound objects will remain a commonality throughout your career.
Fey Step stays the same. Fights don't take place with a larges space between individuals than they did at lower levels. Combat Challenge remains useful because it's always a flat 10% less chance for the opponent to hit anybody other than you.
Then there's Mage Hand. It could lift a chair at 1st level and it can lift a chair at 30th. This has no relevance to combat or skill challenges.
As do any number of racial powers and most utilities. According to you, anything earned early on that does not have increasing values is worthless by endgame, which is way false. Teleport powers, even if they are earned very early, remain damn useful throughout your career because of what they do, not by how much they do it. The same goes with cantrips.
Okay, no thought or education to be found here either. Penalties, senses and movements remain constant. If they're good at 1st level, they're equally good at 30th because the mechanics they're based on do not scale with levels. Monster stats do scale, and so if attack powers didn't scale, they would give diminishing returns.
You can set stuff on fire with it. Prestidigitation's ability to light a number of things including a small campfire ensures it's arson potential. The ability to produce a small item or make one invisible can come in very handy during any number of bluff checks (for example: if you know what the symbol or badge of the local judicial authority looks like you can reproduce it and show it off for expanded access to the city). Mage Hand allows you to put away and draw an object simultaneously as a minor action (by far the best property of cantrips overall, and alone almost worth a feat), as well as pick up any object up to 25 feet away and put it into your hand as a minor action (which combined with the previous use is likely fully worthy of a feat, if not too much so). Light can allow you to cause enemies to light up like a road flare for the next 5 minutes (by targeting their armor or weapon), reducing their overall ability to hide from you in an otherwise favorable scenario (he's hidden? then I target the square at the center of the massive circle of light over there...). Ghost Sound allows you to whisper secretly to someone 50 feet away (potentially very handy in combat, considering that yelled commands are heard by the enemy), or imitate another person's voice as a means of causing a distraction (or the delivery of false orders, such as by killing the leader of a group just as you Ghost Sound his voice screaming "retreat!").
Name one reason for why only the Wizard should be able to do any of these. In fact, I will not respond to you further until this question is answered with ironclad premises and bulletproof logic. I've waited long enough and you people are really trying my patience.
Just because you can't find combat utility does not mean there is no combat utility.
You've been implying that all these tiny little benefits amount to enough power that makes them more powerful than any of the heroic tier feats and Arcane Initiate. It's slightly more useful than Linguist, which is the very worst feat of all the heroic tier feats.
Did I only say out-of-combat? No, I specifically noted skill challenges. It was in the part of my post that you quoted!
To which, abilities like prestidigitation could be quite useful as well. Showing off a badge created by it could very well be worth a success on its own in a social test involving someone who respects authority. Any number of other tricks could be worth a circumstantial bonus.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
I've already gone through the Rogue's and Wizard's utility power and the ones you cited only strengthen my case that cantrips suck majorly. They all give mechanical benefits, except Ambassador Imp, but that power also sucks. Cantrips give none whatsoever.
Minor action, pick object off the ground and hold it in your hand from up to 5 squares away. Minor action, simultaneously put away and draw an object. Minor action, pick up 20-pound object and move it 5 squares per move action in any direction to an absolute distance of whatever you can see without having to move yourself. Minor action, make one object (unattended or otherwise) glow with a bright light that illuminates four squares in all directions for 5 minutes, no chance to miss an attended object.
No mechanical benefits? O RLY?!
Awesome_Dude wrote:
No, that's just vindictive and irrational. I look at the content of each post, nothing else. If you choose to ignore me for taking the discussion seriously enough to not validate all the feel-good "we're all winners!" crap that inevitably surfaces on an internet forum, that's your problem. But don't pretend like you're returning the favor.
Whether you care about a feel-good vibe doesn't matter. The fact that you threw some inane comment about combing your hair at me as some argument against my statement proves that apparently at some point you decided to cease reading most arguments and assume everyone was saying the same exact thing. Once you're doing that, you aren't even trying to form a reasonable discussion.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Fey Step stays the same. Fights don't take place with a larges space between individuals than they did at lower levels. Combat Challenge remains useful because it's always a flat 10% less chance for the opponent to hit anybody other than you.
Then there's Mage Hand. It could lift a chair at 1st level and it can lift a chair at 30th. This has no relevance to combat or skill challenges.
Or you can use Mage Hand to loot bodies from a distance as a minor action while still participating in the fight (which potentially allows you to use gain new equipment to use for combat during the fight). Or you can use it to swap weapons as a minor action without wasting a feat on quick draw. Or it can allow an item to traverse a room without putting the party in imminent danger (such as when dealing with puzzle rooms involving traps).
"Awesome_Dude only uses it to lift chairs" is not the same as "it can only lift chairs".
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Okay, no thought or education to be found here either. Penalties, senses and movements remain constant. If they're good at 1st level, they're equally good at 30th because the mechanics they're based on do not scale with levels. Monster stats do scale, and so if attack powers didn't scale, they would give diminishing returns.
And the effects that cantrips are based around don't scale either. Do 20-pound objects become heavier as you level up? Does darkness become darker, requiring more light illumination to fill the same size area? Does the ability to create small objects become weaker because small objects scale to be too small object-y for prestidigitation? Does the ability to produce illusory sounds need to scale because illusory sounds should be more illusiony or soundy?
Now you're just *****ing and moaning for the sake of *****ing and moaning.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Name one reason for why only the Wizard should be able to do any of these. In fact, I will not respond to you further until this question is answered with ironclad premises and bulletproof logic. I've waited long enough and you people are really trying my patience.
Name one time I've ever said that the wizard should be the only one to do any of these. I haven't. I think Ghost Sound as a race-exclusive feat is perfectly fine, as are magic items which amplify and grant the powers to whomever wears them while taking up slots that could be better served with far more powerful magic item properties. However, I think that (at least half of the) cantrips are too powerful for basic feats, unless said feats have at least relatively costly requirements
Awesome_Dude wrote:
You've been implying that all these tiny little benefits amount to enough power that makes them more powerful than any of the heroic tier feats and Arcane Initiate. It's slightly more useful than Linguist, which is the very worst feat of all the heroic tier feats.
Mage Hand by itself I would argue to be better than Quick Draw in overall utility. Despite the +2 to initiative and the ability to draw without an action at all, the comparative ability to swap with a minor (which is the same as Quick Draw, since it's a minor to put away an item) or the ability to pick useful items (such as loot) off the ground mid-combat from up to 5 squares away and put them in your hand with a minor action is much better. Obviously Wizards feels that Ghost Sound is worthwhile enough to merit a single racial feat to be granted it with a bluff bonus while using it (making it slightly weaker than a standard feat, which I can agree with, since it and Prestidigitation are definitely the weakest two cantrips). Light I would say is almost comparative to a level 2 utility power, especially since the level 6 utility prayer Holy Lantern is a more effective, but comparative power (it grants a +2 bonus to those within and swaps the ability to be casted on an object or space for the ability to free-float and move as a minor, while being bumped up to standard action from minor and granting one space more light in all directions).
There are no verbal nor somatic nor material components. There are situations where these spells can be cast discretely.
There are no verbal, somatic or material components for any power. Also, there is no distinction between how any particular power is supposed to be executed. This means you can cast a spell only as discreetly as you can stab someone in the face.
Mage Hand by itself I would argue to be better than Quick Draw in overall utility. Despite the +2 to initiative and the ability to draw without an action at all, the comparative ability to swap with a minor (which is the same as Quick Draw, since it's a minor to put away an item) or the ability to pick useful items (such as loot) off the ground mid-combat from up to 5 squares away and put them in your hand with a minor action is much better.
Quick Draw: One main usage, the ability to draw one or two weapons and attack as a standard action.
Mage Hand: Two main uses... #1 - Can put away what is in one hand and put something else in that hand as a minor action. #2 - As a move action, you can move than hand 5 squares, have it pick something up off the ground as a minor action, then spend another move action to have the hand return to your square, and drop it as a free action. #3 - Use it to avoid "gotcha" traps, like trapped doors, pressure plates, or other out-of-combat traps.
QD has definite combat potential, while MH...the closest I can come up with is "Mage Hand to sheathe one weapon and pull out a potion as a minor action, drink the potion as a minor action, then draw the weapon back out as a minor action." Of course, one could easily just say "drop one weapon as a free action, pull out the potion as a minor action, drink as a minor action, and pick the weapon back up as a minor action." The sheer number of actions required to TK something would make that usage of MH incredibly limited.
Light I would say is almost comparative to a level 2 utility power, especially since the level 6 utility prayer Holy Lantern is a more effective, but comparative power (it grants a +2 bonus to those within and swaps the ability to be casted on an object or space for the ability to free-float and move as a minor, while being bumped up to standard action from minor and granting one space more light in all directions).
If most parties have a wizard, who will have light up if illumination becomes an issue...is it really that bad to have another character around with a light spell up? Just seems really redundant. And though it could be said that one could supply light if the other is unable to (due ot incapacitation), other PCs could do much the same thing with a torch or sunrod.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
"corncob"]There are no verbal, somatic or material components for any power. Also, there is no distinction between how any particular power is supposed to be executed. This means you can cast a spell only as discreetly as you can stab someone in the face.
This.
Because of this, the wizard can only use cantrips to help with trickery from a distance while unseen.
Mage Hand is by far the most useful cantrip, and Decivre has shown this rather solidly. Light is mostly made irrelevant by strapping sunrods to shields, although making NPCs glow so you can find them if they try to hide is nifty. Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation are Appeals to DM Fiat, which makes pretty much any conclusion about their power levels entirely arbitrary and applicable to exactly one game: the game being discussed by the person who's providing the example.
Generally speaking, a balance-minded DM will allow Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation to have precisely the same amount of power that any PC using any old set of tools or ingenuity might have. In other words, cleverness itself is rewarded, not specific use of granted wrote:
There are no verbal, somatic or material components for any power. Also, there is no distinction between how any particular power is supposed to be executed. This means you can cast a spell only as discreetly as you can stab someone in the face.[/quote] This.
Because of this, the wizard can only use cantrips to help with trickery from a distance while unseen.
Mage Hand is by far the most useful cantrip, and Decivre has shown this rather solidly. Light is mostly made irrelevant by strapping sunrods to shields, although making NPCs glow so you can find them if they try to hide is nifty. Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation are Appeals to DM Fiat, which makes pretty much any conclusion about their power levels entirely arbitrary and applicable to exactly one game: the game being discussed by the person who's providing the example.
Generally speaking, a balance-minded DM will allow Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation to have precisely the same amount of power that any PC using any old set of tools or ingenuity might have. In other words, cleverness itself is rewarded, not specific use of granted powers.
To which, abilities like prestidigitation could be quite useful as well. Showing off a badge created by it could very well be worth a success on its own in a social test involving someone who respects authority. Any number of other tricks could be worth a circumstantial bonus.
There is no such thing as a circumstantial bonus.
And why the hell are there badges in the first place? D&D politics and geopgraphy are of the Iron Age. If you want to lie, you make a Bluff check.
Minor action, pick object off the ground and hold it in your hand from up to 5 squares away. Minor action, simultaneously put away and draw an object. Minor action, pick up 20-pound object and move it 5 squares per move action in any direction to an absolute distance of whatever you can see without having to move yourself. Minor action, make one object (unattended or otherwise) glow with a bright light that illuminates four squares in all directions for 5 minutes, no chance to miss an attended object.
No mechanical benefits? O RLY?!
Yeah, no mechanical benefits. At all. You just described logistics. Logistics don't matter because all they deal with is getting from point A to point B. Nontactical movement, light sources, warmth, food, etc. The rules don't care about these things.
Whether you care about a feel-good vibe doesn't matter. The fact that you threw some inane comment about combing your hair at me as some argument against my statement proves that apparently at some point you decided to cease reading most arguments and assume everyone was saying the same exact thing. Once you're doing that, you aren't even trying to form a reasonable discussion.
Everything you do with Prestidigitation amounts to the same act as combing your hair. You're getting all these tiny little benefits that give you no plusses in combat and don't help you achieve your goals. They just validate your laziness.
Or you can use Mage Hand to loot bodies from a distance as a minor action while still participating in the fight (which potentially allows you to use gain new equipment to use for combat during the fight).
So. What?
Or you can use it to swap weapons as a minor action without wasting a feat on quick draw.
Powergamers don't tend to waste a feat on Quick Draw anyways. They keep their weapons already drawn to not waste actions. If they want better initiative, they'll take Improved Initiative or Danger Sense.
Or it can allow an item to traverse a room without putting the party in imminent danger (such as when dealing with puzzle rooms involving traps).
Logistics. Not a mechanical or balance issue. It doesn't matter if you throw a rock or move it telekinetically. The end result is a rock stationed further away from you than it originally was.
And the effects that cantrips are based around don't scale either.
You'll start seeing more chairs made of gold as opposed to timber, I'd assume.
Do 20-pound objects become heavier as you level up?
More heavy objects might start popping up.
Does darkness become darker, requiring more light illumination to fill the same size area?
Light is always the same. If you have light, it doesn't mean you're more powerful. It means you're not penalized.
Does the ability to create small objects become weaker because small objects scale to be too small object-y for prestidigitation? Does the ability to produce illusory sounds need to scale because illusory sounds should be more illusiony or soundy?
This point, and most of the previous points you made also support my argument. Is this intentional?
Now you're just *****ing and moaning for the sake of *****ing and moaning.
No, I'm being one of the rational people in this thread.
I think Ghost Sound as a race-exclusive feat is perfectly fine, as are magic items which amplify and grant the powers to whomever wears them while taking up slots that could be better served with far more powerful magic item properties.
And the fact is that Butcher's Lure SUCKS. Don't just take my word for it. Ask anybody the Optimization forum to help you with a Gnoll build and present it with one of its feats as Butcher's Lure.
However, I think that (at least half of the) cantrips are too powerful for basic feats, unless said feats have at least relatively costly requirements
Using strict requirements as an excuse for a powerful feat is one of the worst design notions ever. They result in overpowered characters, whereas the characters who need the feat most to stay competitive can't get them.
Mage Hand by itself I would argue to be better than Quick Draw in overall utility. Despite the +2 to initiative and the ability to draw without an action at all, the comparative ability to swap with a minor (which is the same as Quick Draw, since it's a minor to put away an item) or the ability to pick useful items (such as loot) off the ground mid-combat from up to 5 squares away and put them in your hand with a minor action is much better.
There are loads upon loads of feats that are better than Quick Draw. The fact that they're all in the heroic tier does not imply that they must also be balanced with each other.
Obviously Wizards feels that Ghost Sound is worthwhile enough to merit a single racial feat to be granted it with a bluff bonus while using it (making it slightly weaker than a standard feat, which I can agree with, since it and Prestidigitation are definitely the weakest two cantrips).
Ghost Sound is not worth a racial feat, with bonus or otherwise.
Light I would say is almost comparative to a level 2 utility power, especially since the level 6 utility prayer Holy Lantern is a more effective, but comparative power (it grants a +2 bonus to those within and swaps the ability to be casted on an object or space for the ability to free-float and move as a minor, while being bumped up to standard action from minor and granting one space more light in all directions).
Quick Draw: One main usage, the ability to draw one or two weapons and attack as a standard action.
Mage Hand: Two main uses... #1 - Can put away what is in one hand and put something else in that hand as a minor action. #2 - As a move action, you can move than hand 5 squares, have it pick something up off the ground, then spend another move action to have the hand return to your square, and drop it as a free action.
QD has definite combat potential, while MH...the closest I can come up with is "Mage Hand to sheathe one weapon and pull out a potion as a minor action, drink the potion as a minor action, then draw the weapon back out as a minor action." Of course, one could easily just say "drop one weapon as a free action, pull out the potion as a minor action, drink as a minor action, and pick the weapon back up as a minor action." The sheer number of actions required to TK something would make that usage of MH incredibly limited.
As a single minor action, you can spawn a Mage Hand in the square that has the item up to 5 squares away, pick that item up, move it 5 squares in your direction and drop it into your hand. A single move action for all of that. Definitely better than the way you thought it worked.
Arcane Guyver wrote:
If most parties have a wizard, who will have light up if illumination becomes an issue...is it really that bad to have another character around with a light spell up? Just seems really redundant. And though it could be said that one could supply light if the other is unable to (due ot incapacitation), other PCs could do much the same thing with a torch or sunrod.
Light has much better uses than simply creating a light source. If you're dealing with a lurker that constantly re-hides, you can cast light on it's armor or weapon, or hit it with an arrow with the light spell cast on it, and track it despite not being able to see it. When you need to target it and need to pick a square, pick the square at the middle of the circle of light. Another of my favorite uses is to use it like a scouting flare... cast it on an arrow and shoot it down a hallway to see what's beyond your torchlight, or Drop a rock with light on it down a pit to see if you can spot the bottom.
I'm starting to think I don't like the way these powers are worded. Why would anyone sustain a mage hand, or waste actions moving it around when you could just recast it in the target square? Unless the hand can be moved beyond the initial range, which was the reason for my interpretation of light (believing that such spells expire if enough space is placed between you and the effect).
If these effects can indeed leave their initial Range, then I'd be happy with seeing two at-will cantrips as a secondary multiclass feat (since they're a bit better than I had initially thought).
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
And why the hell are there badges in the first place? D&D politics and geopgraphy are of the Iron Age. If you want to lie, you make a Bluff check.
Right, no such thing as a circumstantial bonuses, treasure parcels, skill challenges... in fact, let's just say the whole DMG does not exist. It apparently doesn't according to you.
The badge thing was a simple example. You seem needlessly tied to semantics solely so you can avoid the actual point of a given statement.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Yeah, no mechanical benefits. At all. You just described logistics. Logistics don't matter because all they deal with is getting from point A to point B. Nontactical movement, light sources, warmth, food, etc. The rules don't care about these things.
Getting from point A to point B is tactical movement, man. And despite what you say, the rules DO care about these things... otherwise every ritual would have the same cost, the same time constraints, and the game would completely eliminate the diplomacy skill altogether.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Everything you do with Prestidigitation amounts to the same act as combing your hair. You're getting all these tiny little benefits that give you no plusses in combat and don't help you achieve your goals. They just validate your laziness.
Yay! More *****ing and moaning combined with more strawmen about combing your hair.
Not every advantage or disadvantage in this game is as simple as a bonus or penalty. Humans only have a single +2 bonus to a single attribute, and according to your logic that makes them the weakest race in the game, damn the fact that they can choose whichever attribute to add it to. Their third at-will according to your logic is inferior to a racial encounter power again proving them the weakest race, damn the fact that it adds a potentially vital boost to the number of options that a human has in any given turn that doesn't go away after one use.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
So. What?
Not an actual statement. Moving on.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Powergamers don't tend to waste a feat on Quick Draw anyways. They keep their weapons already drawn to not waste actions. If they want better initiative, they'll take Improved Initiative or Danger Sense.
Who said I give a **** only about powergamers? I care about what affects players in general, whether they powergame or not. That said, even a powergamer would find use of it (or the aforementioned cantrip) if they used multiple weapons/implements. That, or they might go for the +2 initiative bonus (doubtful though, considering there are other feats that grant bigger bonuses).
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Logistics. Not a mechanical or balance issue. It doesn't matter if you throw a rock or move it telekinetically. The end result is a rock stationed further away from you than it originally was.
You can't throw a rock as far as you can visibly see, unless you can only visibly see 50 feet away. You can summon a mage hand up to 5 squares away, but move it as far away from you as you so please, carrying whatever you want it to or sending it to retrieve whatever you want it to.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
You'll start seeing more chairs made of gold as opposed to timber, I'd assume.
Then it should satisfy your apparent chair and comb fetish to a greater degree.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
More heavy objects might start popping up.
Doubtful. Handheld objects are likely to never exceed 20 pounds. Unless you're trying some stupid crap like moving an obelisk, 20 pounds is all you really need to shift around from a distance.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Light is always the same. If you have light, it doesn't mean you're more powerful. It means you're not penalized.
I don't see what the point of that was. If it has a function and it continues to be useful to some degree, it continues to be useful. Light continues to be useful as a means of tagging invisible creatures, testing dungeon hallways, or simply making a cheap illumination. Unless you magically gain darkvision over the course of your 30 levels, light has uses, and makes the overall cantrip feature quite a bargain for the simple utility it serves to provide.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
This point, and most of the previous points you made also support my argument. Is this intentional?
No it doesn't, but it somewhat agrees with part of what you previously said. Some abilities need to scale and others do not to continue to be useful. In this we agree... however I feel that cantrips are the sort that don't need to scale.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
No, I'm being one of the rational people in this thread.
If by rational you mean "condescending to anyone who doesn't agree with you", then I suppose so.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
And the fact is that Butcher's Lure SUCKS. Don't just take my word for it. Ask anybody the Optimization forum to help you with a Gnoll build and present it with one of its feats as Butcher's Lure.
I figured the +2 bonus to bluff would be somewhat enjoyed, but oh well. Once again, I care about things that all players can enjoy, and don't care about the things that only cater to the powergamer crowd.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Using strict requirements as an excuse for a powerful feat is one of the worst design notions ever. They result in overpowered characters, whereas the characters who need the feat most to stay competitive can't get them.
I thought you were of the notion that cantrips aren't powerful anyways?
Awesome_Dude wrote:
There are loads upon loads of feats that are better than Quick Draw. The fact that they're all in the heroic tier does not imply that they must also be balanced with each other.
True, but I still feel that cantrips as a basic feat are too much.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Ghost Sound is not worth a racial feat, with bonus or otherwise.
I disagree. That's about as close to a compromise as we can get.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Nobody takes Holy Lantern.
By which you mean you don't take Holy Lantern, or perhaps you and powergamers don't take Holy Lantern.
I'm starting to think I don't like the way these powers are worded. Why would anyone sustain a mage hand, or waste actions moving it around when you could just recast it in the target square? Unless the hand can be moved beyond the initial range, which was the reason for my interpretation of light (believing that such spells expire if enough space is placed between you and the effect).
If these effects can indeed leave their initial Range, then I'd be happy with seeing two at-will cantrips as a secondary multiclass feat (since they're a bit better than I had initially thought).
It can be moved outside it's initial range... initial range is only for the casting, after which it can move an unlimited distance away from you.
Again, I'm saying these powers are not sucky for a reason, not just because they look pretty or something. They have actual uses that, if you think about them just long enough, can be pretty damn handy.
