Thanks again for your help, Azrael. I'll codify your feats and a couple I've been working on into a master list. I'm also adding a skill or two to the mix (Ride, Mechanics-sort of an Arcana for technology) so I'll work up a chapter on that. I plan to have a version of the two existing classes as well as the Tactician class published through paragon tier before the election comes up. Races survived essentially unscathed, so I can paste in the flavor differences and call it a day. Finally I want to do a bit of work on "magic" weapons and items that fit a Wild West theme.
Hopefully I can have a prototype Wild West PHB within the week! Until then I will be updating the classes as I go along, PEACH as usual and when everything comes together I'll link it up to the forums here.
For some good ideas and a really good wild west system look at aces&eights you might like the system or just take some ideas to add to use in your game using 4E's rules.
I mostly watch a lot of John Wayne movies with my grandma, who's in love with him. Sometimes Clint Eastwood. My main wild west story inspirations are the anime Trigun, and the comic series Jonah Hex. Trigun is technically sci-fi, taking place on a planet which is basically a giant desert. Not only are gunslingers common, they almost always have a weird gimmick; for instance, the main character won't kill anyone, and is also the best gunman alive, there's the preacher/bounty hunter (my favorite Western archetype) who carries a cross that has pistols in one arm, ammo in the other, a rifle in the bottom, and a rocket launcher on the top. Etc.
Jonah Hex, for those who haven't had the pleasure, is a very good comic series, published variously by DC comics and their Vertigo imprint; the titular character is the most feared bounty hunter in the west; a former Confederate soldier, slight supernatural bent (although his Vertigo line had him fighting zombies, spirit-folk, etc.), mostly raised by Indians, who later melted half his face, hates God, plans to make good with the devil by sending as many evil souls to Hell as he can. No mercy for the wicked (in one issue, he delivers smallpox medicine to a man who had killed a tribe of indians, including a little girl; after he hands him the medicine, he shoots it out of his hand and leaves him to die). Very good. Some kind of reputation feat/score/whatever might be needed. All the really good gunmen/outlaws are always known far and wide.
I love the idea of fantasy races existing in a supernatural western setting. I would suggest staying away from Eladrin though; a little too high-magic. To go along with the setting, each race should have a slang term for it, that's offensive (i.e. Injun, chink...you know what I mean...)
Note: If you want a funny western video series, go to www.channel101.com and look up The Fastest Samurai in the West. It tells the story of Chinky Lee, and his quest to find his sister. Along the way, he fights vampires. Explicit langauge, but funny as hell.
Use to love Jonah Hex about 25-30 years ago that is man might have to try to find some old issues to use in my A&8 game
I know armor isn't the first thing that you think of when you think of the Wild West, but for the sake of character differentiation I would like to stat a few out and submit them to the board's consideration. Each armor listed is a separate proficiency, and bonuses apply to Reflex and Fortitude.
Cloth armor is normal clothing. As in D&D, it can be enchanted.
Hide Tunic is a thick leather coat, shirt, pants, and boots made from cured dinosaur hide (or similar material). Aesthetically a character wearing it would look like your stereotypical gunslinger: big boots and a heavy coat.
The Gunslinger's Vest is an item invented by halfling merchants in the West who applied ancient Eastern silk-weaving techniques to giant spider silk to make a bullet resistant but pliable article of clothing. The full armor consists of a vest and slacks spun from cloth interwoven with giant spider silk. It can be cut and dyed so as to appear like any normal clothing the wearer desires.
Body Armor is made of a Gunslinger's vest with thin sheets of alloy sewn within the fabric (the metal is not visible). A wearer of this armor just seems to be wearing a particularly bulky jacket. It is hot and uncomfortable to wear, and so is common only in military operations or among particularly well supplied bandits.
Plate Armor (see awesome pic below) is extremely bulky, extremely uncomfortable, and extremely rare. Because it is so physically encumbering, even the unusual bandits who use it typically don it only in the moments immediately before a firefight. The proficiency feat for Plate armor requires a Str of 14 or better.
The important thing for all these armors is to emphasize that a character wearing them looks like he could still fit in any historical Wild West picture.
While it was a pretty out there, well okay really out there situation there is a case during the Wild West (well Wild Australia) where basically full-on plate armour was used.
Ned Kelly was well, some view him as a folk hero, others an outlaw. You can look him up to get more info, but him and his gang wore body armour, this body armour:
While it was a pretty out there, well okay really out there situation there is a case during the Wild West (well Wild Australia) where basically full-on plate armour was used.
Ned Kelly was well, some view him as a folk hero, others an outlaw. You can look him up to get more info, but him and his gang wore body armour, this body armour:
lol, I like it. I'll stat it out, it would be an unusual option for a PC, but an interesting one. It would also make for an interesting encounter with unusual bandits.
Kudos as well for making me look towards Australia for more inspiration. I'm sure there are other things about that continent and its history that could influence the Wild West setting!
Okay, after reading the Tactician, I think I can port some more feats over now.
Oh, and in regards to Racial traits...the Dwarf needs a little love, I think. The Dwarven Weapon Proficiency would apply to Hammer and Throwing Hammer, like normal (although the Hammer is a little weaker than a Warhammer), Encumbered Speed is a little bit weaker due to the rareness of heavy armor, and Stand Your Ground might not be as good if there are less forced movement effects; I haven't read through each power, but if you don't include too many forced movements, then I would consider giving them another, relatively minor feature. What, I don't know. Oh yeah, and its racial skill bonuses will need to change...since Dungeoneering should basically be dropped (how many dungeons would be around?), maybe replace it with +2 Religion (I think it fits, both in their normal build and their western stereotype).
Inspired Recovery: As PHB, but requires Healing Touch class feature; change to Wis mod (as Cha isn't really a Tactician thing as written. Also, while this does not interact with the feature the same way it does for the warlord, its still a useful feat) Tactical Assault: As PHB, but requires Give 110% (see above) All of the Channel Divinity feats can be changed into Rallying Cry feats. They have the same effects as normal (although Pelor's Radiance might need to be adjusted a bit, and the same with Melora's Tide and Sehanine's Reversal...they hit me as way too supernatural for this class); the requirements are Rallying Cry class feature, and you may only take one. Someone else will have to come up with the names for these feats, because I'm not very good at it. Tactician Multiclass Feat: Requires Int and Wis 13. You gain training in one of their skills, pick either Rallying Cry: Encouraging Word or Rebel Yell; you may use it 1/day. (I'm not really satisfied with this feat...it makes you eligible for the Rallying Cry feats for one, which none of the regular multiclass feats do...but I don't know what else to make it.)
I have been giving a lot of thought to the treatment of melee combat in this setting, and this is what I've come up with so far. I don't know if you guys still read the posts, wrecan, bone_naga, and others, but you heavily influenced my thinking on this aspect of the game and so I would appreciate your opinions of how it turned out! (also thanks!)
Of course, I would like to hear from anyone what they think, or if somebody else has made similar feats (I know they're out there) that you think I should take a look at.
The feats: Close Quarters [Brawler] Prerequisite: Str 13 Benefit: You gain proficiency with improvised weapons, granting a +1 attack bonus (this also applies to grab and bull rush attempts). If, as part of a charge action, you are hit by an opportunity attack for entering a square adjacent to your target, you may spend a healing surge (which restores no hp) to continue your attack as though you were not hit (you still take the damage, but you are allowed to attack as well).
Improved Grab [Brawler] Prerequisite: Close Quarters, Con 13 Benefit: You may make a Grab attack as part of a charge instead of a Bull-Rush or Basic Attack. For the purposes of determining if an enemy can escape your grab, add 5 to your Fortitude Defense.
Improved Bull Rush [Brawler] Prerequisite: Close Quarters, Str 15 Benefit: If you succeed on a Bull Rush, you may push the enemy a number of square equal to your Str modifier. You may still only shift 1 square in pursuit.
Merciless Pugilist [Brawler] Prerequisite: Close Quarters, A melee weapon proficiency Benefit: If you have combat advantage against an enemy in melee, you gain a + 3 bonus to damage rolls.
My idea for melee combat as I designed these is that you could become markedly better at melee combat by taking just Close Quarters, which lets you short-circuit the major disincentive for melee combat in the game (the opportunity attack that also cancels the rest of your turn). Following that feat, you could take a secondary feat that would help you get a sort of alternate melee role.
Improved Grab gives you defender, since you can keep an enemy immobilized while pummeling him slowly to death (his physical attacks probably suck, and he can't use ranged attacks while grabbed).
Improved Bull Rush makes you something of a controller, since you can run around knocking people into the open where they are easy prey for your teammates, and have to waste an action next turn getting back under cover (which might provoke OA's from your Gunslinger!)
Merciless Pugilist makes you into a pseudo-rogue, without the flash and awesomeness but still damaging in melee. This one might need the most work of all of them to be exciting.
If you really want to be a melee character you could get all the feats, though thanks to Azrael there are many good feats you would be missing out on by doing so.
I was also curious about the idea of having a melee role selectable as part of the character creation process, that was separate from the ranged role. I didn't like it at first but a lot of posters seemed to be interested in it. So I gave it some thought and this is what I came up with:
When you choose your class, you can also choose to give it some melee punch to fall back on in desperate times. This is accomplished by giving up a major class feature (dependent on class, outlined below). In return you gain the Close Quarters feat as a bonus feat, and may choose 1 other Brawler feat without having to meet the prerequisites. Gunslinger: Ditch Shootout Style Sharpshooter: Ditch Fancy Shooting Tactician: Ditch Combat Inspiration
And voila! Instant secondary melee role. If you opt not to choose a melee role or even purchase it with feats later, you are rewarded with an additional class feature which is quite powerful. If you love melee combat you get it, and everyone is happy!
PEACH, I like this idea but prove me wrong or tell me how you would make it better! Your ideas have already made this system far better than I had hoped!
I like it. I wouldn't ever take the alternate class features thing, but I guess some people might, hence why its optional. The feats are pretty cool too. Close Quarters + Dwarven Weapon Training = Proficiency+1 to attack and +2 dmg with improvised = Win! Something I never took into account though...what about unarmed attacks? Which group are they in?
Maybe some kind of Defensive Brawler feat? Gives you a bonus to Ref when you're adjacent to an opponent or something.
Some more feats that came to mind...
Lucky (name should be changed, to avoid confusion with the Luck defense): You may add your Cha mod (min +1) to defenses against gun attacks made within 3 squares. This might need to be a Paragon feat. Good Position: You may add your Int mod (min +1) to defenses against gun attacks made 10 squares or farther. This might also be a Paragon feat. I mentioned making these feats like, a thousand years ago, and have just now gotten to it.
I like the idea of instead of a supernatural class, maybe make it a multiclass only thing, similar to how Spellscars work (although I don't have the FRPG, so I don't know the specifics on them.) If you do make some though, maybe make them of the Supernatural power source, with the Priest (Defender, keys off Religion, maybe small arms only. Similar to Paladin maybe), Shaman (leader, keys off Nature, archaic/simple weapons only or something. Maybe similar to the PHB Cleric), and Occultist (Striker, keys off Arcana, don't really know what their shtick would be, though). That's just off the top of my head, of course.
I like it. I wouldn't ever take the alternate class features thing, but I guess some people might, hence why its optional. The feats are pretty cool too. Close Quarters + Dwarven Weapon Training = Proficiency+1 to attack and +2 dmg with improvised = Win! Something I never took into account though...what about unarmed attacks? Which group are they in?
I think RAW has unarmed as improvised weapons, and if they're not normally I would make them so. It fits the flavor of the feats nicely, so why fight it?
Azrael_Macool wrote:
Maybe some kind of Defensive Brawler feat? Gives you a bonus to Ref when you're adjacent to an opponent or something.
I also like the idea of feats that grant positional bonuses to defenses. I haven't had any brain waves on the subject, but yours look workable and I'll keep thinking.
As a side note, I'm working up a feat list for eventual inclusion in the Sunset PHB.
Side-side note- I'm getting tired of always calling it the Wild West mod for 4E, what do you think of shortening it to Sunset for these internal thread references to the rule set?
Azrael_Macool wrote:
I like the idea of instead of a supernatural class, maybe make it a multiclass only thing, similar to how Spellscars work (although I don't have the FRPG, so I don't know the specifics on them.) If you do make some though, maybe make them of the Supernatural power source, with the Priest (Defender, keys off Religion, maybe small arms only. Similar to Paladin maybe), Shaman (leader, keys off Nature, archaic/simple weapons only or something. Maybe similar to the PHB Cleric), and Occultist (Striker, keys off Arcana, don't really know what their shtick would be, though). That's just off the top of my head, of course.
I definitely want to give some magic options to players even if full blown classes aren't going to happen, and going the path of the spellscarred seems like a good way to do it. I'll read up on them, I honestly thought they were kind of dumb at first glance and didn't bother exploring it deeper. Your archetypes seem to fit well.
