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Switch to Forum Live View New Class: The Sorcerous Sentinel
5 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2008 - 9:38AM #61
ff6shadow
Date Joined: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 10,574
Lightning Strike
The LIne convention doesn't exists. I used it after seeing a house ruled version on the boards. I forgot to add the rules for it to the PDF. I'll get them in there soon.

Stunning Strike
I had considered higher damage, but it is a weapon based power that targets Will. So it is an easy hit against almost any target and it stuns. So I'm not sure on the damage upgrade there. Still think it should be boosted?

Sonic Lance
We both missed that this is an implement only power that deals [W] damage. Making it 4d8. As for the pull, the flavor text tries to explain it. They are looking at you and you basically use it to hit them from behind.

Safeguard Armor
THis power is missing it's Sustain line and hen the effect ends. It is sustain minor, ending at the end of your turn if not sustained.

Bloodsuck
I was worried about the healing surge free healing on an encounter power, especially with a quarterstaff. I'll up it for now.

Mirror Wall
Not entirely sure why I went with 12. Making it 15
I like the idea of having it visibly bounce as well, but the idea of an unknown effect also appeals to me. Suggestions on wording? I'll take the visible bounce over the undetectability it necessary.

Rain of Fire
Seems that the Copy/Paste demon stikres again in the flavor text.
Fire added, along with miss line.

Nova
Intended to strike all creatures, not just enemies.

Dangerous Tracer
I figured it wouldn't really be more powerful tham Hammer Rythm, but I should have placed it in paragon. Additionally, it is missing one of the original prerequisites, Wisdom 15.
As a note on wisdom in general, I used wisdom as a prerequisite for the slightly more powerful feats, since it forces you to diverge from just buffing your main and secondary of choice.

Added a note allowing the Sorcerous Sentinel to choose Spell Accuracy.

PDF will be updated shortly.
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Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:12AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2008 - 12:06PM #62
Rowl
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 505
I don't think you need the "Line" convention; the wording I noted ends up with the same effect. I only suggest this because I, personally, like to make classes that can be plopped into any DnD game without having to add other new mechanics, and again, in this case I don't really think it's necessary. But that's just personal opinion.

Stunning Strike is a Daily, and using a Quarterstaff, at 3[W] it will only do a max of 24+Cha (maxed at this level is likely +5, maybe +6 but doubtful), which should be right around your Healing Surge Value, which is likely to be about 25 at lv15. I don't see a problem with that. You're also looking at the SS's tertiary skill with a prof +2 wpn (assuming same enhancement bonus for the SS wpn v. Fighter wpn), making this like 4-5 points lower than a Fighter's attack bonus of powers at the same level, which puts your Dex v. Will power pretty close to the Str v. AC dynamic, and it only hits one target, which the Fighter powers of the same level are both against multiple targets. 3[W] is not at all a problem, methinks (I was thinking QS was d6, not d8, so 4[W] is probably a little much).

I caught the Sonic Lance, but I wasn't sure what you wanted with that - I thought it was another of your Melee Weapon at Range deals but forgot to add the Weapon keyword. I'm not overly thrilled about that mechanic anyways (I think it's a neat idea but too clunky because of the required notations in every power), so I like just taking out the [W] dmg and making it 4d6. I also got the concept, it just seemed a bit odd, so I wanted to make a point of mentioning it.

Mirror Wall, text suggestion (this is off the top of my head, so I might be able to clean it up more later if you think it's too clunky):
[INDENT]"Ranged attacks (I suggest maybe including Area and maybe even Close attacks as well) made by your enemies that trace line of effect through the Mirror Wall are reflected back at the attacker when they intersect with the Wall. The attacker becomes the target of the attack, using the same attack roll and modifiers, with the Wall being the initiating point for determination of Range. While this effect is visible, enemies are not aware of the cause or of the Wall itself. The Wall is undetectable and does not affect or hamper movement in any way."[/INDENT]

Dangerous Tracer - don't forget that Hammer Rhythm doesn't add Con dmg when using a power that deals Miss damage. Your feat does add the extra damage. I don't know if there's an easy way to bring it more in line with that - I guess the easiest way would be to disallow the damage on a Dangerous Tracer dmg on a miss, but I think that takes away from the concept that you were aiming for.

I crashed out hard at work last night so I didn't get a chance to do the Epic Tier powers. I'll see if I can get them done later today at my son's football practice.
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2008 - 1:38PM #63
alchemyprime
Date Joined: Nov 7, 2005
Posts: 107
My first impression: I'm impressed. This is very much the sort of class I know my players would enjoy. Very big, very tough and very magical. Just looking at Heroic tier (as my game isn't up to Paragon quite yet) I can see quite a few fun things in here, especially with a Rod SS. This almost seems like... like it should be in an anime or something...

I like it a lot. I can see this becoming a player favorite in the future, especially after I introduce it (many classes I introduce with DMPCs that show up for a bit then leave or I play one myself when the other DM takes over.)

You get the Alchemyprime Seal of Approval!
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2008 - 1:43PM #64
ff6shadow
Date Joined: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 10,574
Thanks. Glad you like it. Please, stop back in and tell me how using it goes.
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Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:12AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2008 - 1:48PM #65
Rowl
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 505
BTW - in all my criticism, I forgot to mention that I also totally love this class concept and design overall. I think you've made a very creative and complex class which nicely blends the aspects of Fighter and Wizard, but also has a little Leader thrown in there. I keep feeling like it should be more Leader than anything else, but there's enough of Defender in the powers and in the basic build (stats and features) to make it function that way too. Obviously, there's plenty of controller there too. It's like Swordmage is the frontline battle caster while the SS is the rearline battle caster.

The more I review it, the more I like the concept of a debuffing, ranged, controlling, battlefield mage kind of thing. As a result, I can see this class working VERY nicely, especially in a game with too few players. A 3 party group consisting of a Cleric, SS, and pretty much any other Defender would still totally rock.
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2008 - 8:39AM #66
Lineov
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2006
Posts: 1,325
I do like the class design and the professional feel of the pdf, however, one thing i've got stuck on, and maybe you mean it this way...

I think Warded Transfer should have a caveat on it that says that you must declare the transfer of the attack before damage is rolled?
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2008 - 8:55AM #67
ff6shadow
Date Joined: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 10,574
Actually, I hadn't thought about it. I'll think on it for a bit, and if anybody else want to comment on it, feel free.

Also, glad you both like the design.
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Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:12AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2008 - 11:09AM #68
Rowl
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 505

Lineov wrote:

I do like the class design and the professional feel of the pdf, however, one thing i've got stuck on, and maybe you mean it this way...

I think Warded Transfer should have a caveat on it that says that you must declare the transfer of the attack before damage is rolled?


The concept of Warded Transfer seems to happen after the attack resolves (btw, if this is accurate, should be an immediate reaction, not interrupt) but just that part of the damage is moved from one char to another. I don't think you should have to expend your one immediate action per turn on having to guess whether or not it's necessary. As a result, I don't think requiring to declare before damage should be required.

Declaring after, making the decision on whether or not it's necessary to do so after you see how much dmg is dealt, is fine (particularly since the class has a LOT of other Immediate actions in his powers).

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2008 - 2:46PM #69
Rowl
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 505
You've gotten a lot more creative with the Epic Tier powers. I really like the concepts you developed for these.

Mirror Force- Addition and minor alteration of text, Effect line, "...from this attack, while you and your ally take none."

Rescue-
1- Keyword missing: Teleport
These other points are mostly suggestions that I think will help the power better convey what you want it to do (I think it's a little underpowered as it currently is):
2- Immediate Interrupt instead of Reaction (because of suggested trigger change below)
3- "Trigger: An enemy hits an ally with an attack."
4- Might not be a bad idea to also let the ally use a Healing Surge with this power. (In which case, also add the Healing keyword too.)

Perfect Defense-
1- Fluff Text, typos: "raising" not "tasing" and remove the extra "o" from "your"
2- Suggested change to Trigger: "An enemy's attack hits an ally"

I think that these alterations make Rescue and Perfect Defense very comparable and allow for the SS to decide between pulling a very hurt ally out of battle and giving him some healing, or a more temporary, but more complete protection setup for a single round, giving him a chance to refresh himself or others a chance to get to him for better protection.

Perfect Ward- See next post

Shock - I really like what you did with this one, very solid concept and mechanical implementation. Creative and interesting with the extra dmg on the save from effect. (PS- this is another Ranged power/Melee weapon one)

Blistering Attack- See next post

Twister- FUN! Based on the fluff, there should be no change to this. That being said, I think the power is better suited to Teleportation instead of Slide to 'rearrange the battlefield.' But I really do like it the way it is too.
One wording addition, Implement line under Attack line: "...you gain an additional +2 bonus..."

Thundering Blow-
1- Consider "Thunder Clap" or "Thunder Stomp" instead. Each also gives a better visual.
2- Fluff text: copy/paste demon from Twister power . Consider, "Slapping your arms together, you clear a path ahead of you with thundering force." or for Stomp name, "Stomping your foot to the ground..."
3- Line attack type/range convention. Again, consider making a Range 10 and rewording the target line. You also have some extraneous parentheses here.
4- Target line possible wording alteration based on Range 10 instead of Line 10: "All creatures in a direct line path up to maximum range."

Amnesia- I love the concept of this one!!
1- Fluff text alteration, correction (remove apostrophe) and suggestion, "Your quick attack leaves your foe unable to focus his thoughts to remember his training."
2- Range power/Melee weapon (reminder)

Stunning Blow- Range power/Melee weapon (reminder)
Fluff text suggestion, "Lightning crackles along your blade just before you unleash it's energy to strike and bewilder your foe."

Enervation-
This might be a little too strong considering the targeted enemies will already have a -2 to hit from being Marked by you. This effectively means that the target can't hit the broad side of a barn (-4 min, -6 max) until your next turn ends. Since it's only 1 round and only 1 creature, maybe it's not such a big deal, but I thought I'd mention it anyways. Consider though making this all enemies in blast and -2 atk penalty on hit, no penalty on miss, maybe even Close Blast 5 (though that might OP it). I think it will compare up better, both to other class powers of this level, and the other powers for SS at this level since you're currently missing an area attack at this level.
Oh, and you forgot an "s" in "disables" in your fluff text.

Inferno-
1- Up the dmg. Comparing to Wiz powers of the same level (particularly Elemental Maw), similar damage affects multiple creatures and either has extra conditions or creates an effect. I suggest 6d10 +Cha, and maybe a secondary attack on adjacent squares Cha v. Ref at 2d10 fire dmg (no added ability mod) and secondary miss as sliding the creature 1 square away from target square and knocking prone.
2- Another thought, from your fluff description ('dropping' on your foe), consider adding Force to the keywords and all dmg also.
3- Fluff suggestion, "You call forth a swirling vortex of flame from the heavens, slamming it down to crush and burn your foes." Maybe a renaming to "Pillar of Fire" too, since that also conjures up some nice imagery.


Splitting Ward- This power doesn't use your Warded Transfer feature, so consider the following descriptive changes:
1- Name: "Infectious Tracer"
2- Fluff: "Your arcane trace spreads like a disease among the Mark's allies."
3- Implement line, wording alteration, "...the targets hit by the redirected attack are considered marked as if by your Tracer feature." (end of your next turn is implied by the feature's text)

Lightning Burst-
Up the damage. Direct comparison to Wiz Black Fire of same level which does 6d6 + Int (vs. ref) fire and necrotic to all enemies in blast 5 area.
Consider: Area Blast 5 within 5 squares (suggestion), targets enemies only, does 4d8+Cha, and if wielding a rod, may use your Warded Transfer feature as a free action on the enemies marked by this attack on their next turn, and you take only 1/2 damage from those attacks instead of full damage (since Rod of Reflection only works on "a creature" once per encounter). This goes back to being a similar effect as the Rod-based Focus feature.

Sweeping Blade of Flame-
Any reason (aside from the name) you want this as fire dmg? I think you'd be better off just naming it Sweeping Blade and making it untyped dmg. Don't pigeon-hole your SS in case he runs up against resistant creatures. (Make notation about using a Melee Weapon to use this power, and that it returns to your hand afterwards.)

TK Blitz-
You have it listed as Daily instead of Encounter. (Make notation about using a Melee Weapon to use this power, and that it returns to your hand afterwards.)

Thunder Ward-
Freaking OUCH! Need to lower damage yields. Fighter stance at same level effectively allows for at-will power dmg at 3[W] against adjacent foes (if he's able to make an OA). You're about that maximum average (about 33 with Mordenkrad) to any target you attack, regardless of hitting it or not (not to mention at any range you can attack)! I know that it's almost a maxed out char, but DAYUM! 5+Cha should be fine, which adds about 13 dmg per target to every attack. And 15, MAYBE 20, should be sufficient for the Warded Transfer.
Also, change Warding to Warded and yourself is one word (again -copy/pasta!!)

Teleporting Weapon-
1-Implement/Weapon issue
2-Ranged power/Melee Weapon issue
3-Give bonus to atk value of at least +2 or change to Cha instead of Dex, or make Reliable (and remove Miss dmg). Fighter power No Mercy is directly comparable even if it is against AC (AC and Fort are likely to be close on AC heavy creatures). It does the same dmg though without the effect, but is also Reliable if he misses. Alternately No Mercy is comparable because of Miss dmg, but hits 2 targets for a total of 10[W]. Personally, I think Dex+2 is the easiest for what I'm betting you want here, but since he's using his Arcane powers to teleport the darn thing into his foe, I think a Cha atk makes the most sense.

Lightning Storm-
Sustain Minor wording change to allow ability to repeat attack, like previously commented on for other powers.

Doppleganger Atk:
1- Weapon/Implement issue
2- Ranged Power/Melee Weapon issue. I'd also increase the Range to 10 (you currently have it as 4?).
3- I can't see a reason to take this power as a result of the restrictions placed upon it and how much better Thunder Ward and Teleporting Weapon (in particular) are. I can kind of understand why you have the restrictions, but I just think it devalues it too much. That being said, you can consolidate most of that into, "Any critical hit you would make with this power is considered a normal hit instead." It would also allow for extra dmg bonuses from Paragon paths or feats, while still limiting the extra damage from crits. I think it might make it just valuable enough to consider if you limit the restrictions to that statement also. Just my .02.
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2008 - 2:47PM #70
Rowl
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 505
Ok, a couple major concerns, which I'm addressing separately since I'm writing a lot on them:

Perfect Ward-
I don't know what to think about this one. I really like the concept - mental exertion as a standard action to 'light up' all the enemies on the battlefield. I'm worried about the combination of effects from some of your Ward Stances and especially with the added effects of Dangerous Tracer feat. Potentially, as currently written, with only the lower Ward Stances (not the lv29 one) and Dangerous Tracer, you're looking at 5+cha (lightning ward) + 5 (dangerous Tracer) for just the mark and another 10+ dmg from any atks the enemies make as long as you sustain this power; you're looking at 26 base dmg + dmg of the enemies' atks for pretty much all the enemies on the field as long as you can sustain this. Pop a few healing potions as minor actions, or have your Cleric/Pally keep you healed up, and this is a pure win scenario.

Even without taking dmg yourself from the Warded Transfer, it's still an auto (roughly) 17 dmg per round to all of them, which is decent though not anywhere close to great, but it's the use of Warded Transfer that makes it really sick. And I'm not even mentioning the -2 debuff from the Mark.

I don't really think there is a problem with the power itself, but if you keep Lightning Ward and Dangerous Tracer as strong as they are, this combo is super OP'd. It's not so much the amount of the damage as it is that the dmg is automatic on top of a debuff.

On the flip side, it also means the SS is going to get killed on the 2nd or 3rd round as everyone jumps him like the Queen in "History of the World, part 1!"


Blistering Attack-
ok, this one brings up the question of how you wield both an implement and weapon at the same time. I didn't being this up before because previously, most of your Implement/Weapon powers give bonus Implement functionality from the implement being a Staff. Since this one tries with a Rod, it gave rise to that recognition. When you wield an implement, the power is channeled through that implement and you gain the bonuses from ONLY that one implement (which is why it's been ruled that the dual-rod wield with that exponential minion clearing potential doesn't work). Thus the following considerations:
1- You can't have an Implement power do weapon damage unless you require it to use a weapon implement (like a staff). Consider removing Implement keyword, changing the dmg from [W], or requiring use of a staff for the implement wielded (realistically, I think that all your previous Implement keyword powers that use the [W] for dmg (all of the previous ones also key off the staff for extra benefits) still need this as a Special line, "You must be wielding a staff to gain Implement benefits when using this power.").
2- If you require staff for implement wielded, change Rod to Staff in the Implement sections of this power.
3- Potentially, you can "hold" a rod and not wield it for the added benefits, while wielding a weapon. However, this still means removing the Implement keyword, just not the implement special notation sections (but changing "wielding" to "holding"). Personally, I think this is the best option.

Ok, so you have 3 categories here.
1- Ranged power using a Melee Weapon, which you're already working on adding a special notation, but probably still need the Implement keyword removed. (some of these might be noted as Cat2)
2- Weapon/Implement keyword powers that have a special benefit for wielding an Implement (up til now have all used Staff); these can be fixed by simply removing the Implement keyword, which isn't really necessary anyways because they are already gaining whatever Implement benefits from it being used as a weapon (as is the case with the Staff, but no other implements).
3- Implement/Weapon keywords that use [W] for dmg, but have no special benefit from using a particular implement; these are fixed by removing the implement keyword - there's just no way to channel the power through the implement AND the weapon at the same time unless it's a staff, which still gives all the benefits from being an implement when being used as a weapon anyways.

My apologies for not voicing this sooner. Here is a list of the offenders by category noted above (level in parentheses):

  • Cat1 (Ranged Power with Melee Weapon notation should already correct) - Dazing Strike (1), Searing Strike (9), Stunning Strike (15), Bloodsuck (17), Shock (23), Teleporting Weapon (29), Doppleganger Attack (29).
  • Cat2 (Special Implement Staff notation, remove Implement Keyword or make special notation that the power must wield staff)- Force Spike (1), Poisonous Strike (7), Fanning Flames (13).
  • Cat3 (Weapon/Implement powers, no special text, use [W] dmg; remove Implement keyword)- Thundering Blow (1), Flame Whirl (1), Freezing Strike (3).

Blistering Attack (23) is in it's own category since it wants to use a Rod for extra benefit, but still keys off [W] for dmg. Obviously, I've addressed this above.

ALTERNATELY...
A potentially easier way to do this would be to allow the SS to wield the Rod or Orb in his off-hand, specifically while using a weapon to attack with an SS power as part of his Implement Focus feature, giving him the benefits of that implement excluding the enhancement bonuses to attack and damage (which could/would come from the weapon). You'd also have to note that this either 'does' or 'does not' qualify them as being a weapon for purposes of benefits while wielding 2 weapons (like 2-Wpn Fighting Feat) - I prefer 'does not'. I'm not sure about the balance effects of this though.

Wording could be (added to Implement Focus feature, using the appropriate wording for the implement for which the focus is):
[INDENT]"A Sorcerous Sentinel may [i]wield a [rod/orb] in his off-hand while using Sorcerous Sentinel powers that have both the Weapon and Implement keywords and wielding a weapon in his main hand. This allows him to add the either property benefits and the enhancement bonuses of the implement or the weapon to his attack, and the implement is not considered a weapon. He may not do this while wielding a staff as an implement in his main hand, but he could still use it as a weapon."[/i] [/INDENT]
Alternately, it could be the prop bonuses for either and the enhancement bonuses for only the weapon.

Unfortunately, this does somewhat screw the Staff Focus wielder, which basically means you'd to figure out what add'l benefit to give for Staff Implement Focus, but you kind of already have since the Staff Guy gets the +1 AC that the others don't have in addition to the other Warded Transfer features. If adding it to the Implements section, and giving it to both Orb and Rod, one has to again question the level of balance and power this might enact.


Also, another point of note is that I can't see making a Cha/Con/Dex based SS, but rather making him more Cha/Dex/Con. Sure he needs Con for HP, but for every 2 pts of HP he gets, he could be getting another point of Ref/AC def and Initiative bonus. Each point of AC benefit is like 5+ pts per tier of HP, especially for a light armour/no shield defender (and with no reason to have a decent Str, he's not ever likely to pick up those feats). If you're not pouring your extra stats into Dex at every opportunity, you're going to be WAY to easy to hit at upper Paragon and Epic levels, while feats like Toughness and Improved Second Wind will accommodate the loss of the extra Con bumps.

Like I said, just a point of note that you may want to alter that in the key abilities section of the intro to the class.


Paragon Paths I'll try to look at Thurs night.
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