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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 4:24AM
#221
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Date Joined:
Jul 10, 2003
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there's always a best option
and the rest of the options can usually be ordered
for fighters it's 1h + S > 2h > 2wf
for rangers it's 2wf >>> 2h >>> 1h
for rogues it's 1h > 2wf >>>>> 2h
so for the main class in question it's actually very well balanced. 2wf is the worst option of the three, but not ridiculously so like 2h for rogues.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 4:36AM
#222
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
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Your evaluation is so biased its rediculous. You credit twd as one of the benifits of the twf path, yet the thf, when he has no more 'offensive' choices, picks his nose.
Isn't he simply comparing with what the poster suggested? "Show me how a fighter who spends 2 feats on Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon defense compares to a fighter who spends 2 feats on Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and Armor Proficiency (Plate)."
One thing I'm curious about is you say its one damage, but your talking about a Heroic Tier feat. Many of these feats are small bonus enhancers so one damage for a feat with little requirements that seem to stack doesn't seem that bad (considering the boooo that is multi-classing, IMO).
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 7:15AM
#223
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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How are you getting an 18 AC in hide with a 16 Dex? Unless my PHB is a typo, page 214 shows Hide Armor as +3 AC. Which means your Hide Armor TWFer is going to have 17 AC after spending a feat on TWD. And why do you have the THFer using a greatsword when spending a feat on Bastard Sword gives you more damage? I believe you've got a lot of things wrong with the stats, as you're referencing 2d6 damage when we're comparing swords.
By the way, you could have a 16, 16, 13 in a stat array. 16, 16, 13, 10, 10, 9 does it just fine.
I admit I got a few things wrong with the stat requirements. If you're going to compare a heavily optimized TWFer, I get to use an optimized THFer, right? That's only fair? Build your TWFer, 2nd level, follow the rules, and I'll build my THFer. Point Buy as PHB, no magic items (unless you feel they're necessary to the strength of TWFing, but I can't see how they'd affect anything). Should we use Human or open it up to anything? I'm going to go with Human just because it's more simple. I also want to point out marrying myself to the Greatsword is affecting the THFer since they're being forced to have higher Dex for their Sword feats, but at least it helps equalize the difference in Reflex and such.
THFer
Str 16 (boosted to 18 with Human bonus)
Con 15
Dex 13
Int 9
Wis 12
Cha 10
Feats
1 Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
1 Armor Proficiency (Plate)
2 Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades)
Defenses (I admit, I've succeeded in a terribly defensive character)
AC 19 (8 armor, 1 half-level)
Fort 17 (2 base, 4 str, 1 half-level)
Ref 12 (1 dex, 1 half-level)
Will 12 (1 wis, 1 half-level)
Attack (w/Greatsword)
1[W]+Str: +9 (4 str, 3 proficiency, 1 fighter, 1 half-level), 1d10+6 (4 str, 1 focus, 1 versatile; 11.5 average)
2[W]+Str: +9, 2d10+6 (17 average)
3[W]+Str: +9, 3d10+6 (22.5 average)
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 7:18AM
#224
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Date Joined:
Jul 10, 2003
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level 2
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 7:50AM
#225
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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level 2
Doh. Then the THFer would have better AC, no?
16 Dex + Hide + 1 half-level: 3+3+1= 17
Any Dex + Scale + 1 half-level: 0+7+1 = 18
Am I missing something? Why does the THFer have worse AC?
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 8:49AM
#226
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Date Joined:
Jul 10, 2003
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AC TWF: 5+3+1 = 19
bad aluman, 16 dex =/= +5 to AC
16 Dex + Hide + 1 half-level + TWD: 3+3+1+1= 18
Any Dex + Plate + 1 half-level: 0+8+1 = 19
the THF is indeed higher AC in plate (sacrificing movement unless he's a dwarf)
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 9:02AM
#227
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Whoops, I thought soemthing was wrong, somehow I was using elderhide.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 11:44AM
#228
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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Whoops, I thought soemthing was wrong, somehow I was using elderhide.
No problem. Now, going light armor with a fighter is going to make a very different character. I don't believe movement is an issue for a fighter, nor do I believe most fighters are going to care about the -2 penalty to physical skills, as their physical ability scores are usually high enough to negate the penalty.
This is the same arguement people tried to make for 3E's TWFing when it came to fighters. TWFing allowed a High Dex fighter to function more adiquately, but it was always more beneficial for the fighter to have a lower Dex (13, to maximize feats and plate armor's Max Dex bonus) and go with a two-hander or a shield (and in 3E, two-handers were supreme). A High Dex fighter did deal more damage TWFing than using a Rapier (a small amount more, not really anything to write home about), but they did not compete with the AC of a Shield user or the damage of a THFer.
We're back in that situation again. TWFing costs two feats, and it doesn't pay out for a fighter. There are those of us that feel fighters should be able to TWF; there are those of us that feel Defenders should be able to use TWFing I should say, so no one tells me to play a ranger, buy chain, and call myself a fighter (I have one player playing a High Str High Wis Ranger, spent his first feat on Chain; actually he's an Eladrin Ranger going for Eladrin Chain armor, but he's not a fighter).
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 1:55PM
#229
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Nothing (technically) stops the TWF from picking up plate though.
In fact, were I to build one, Plate would come first followed by TWD. Unless I was planning on splashing striker powers in.
TWF gain a lot, with mild sacrficies. In plate (easily doable by level 4) they have a point more than THF in plate and a point less than W+S in Plate.
Damage wise against heavy blade THF (Which I would say is one of the lesser choices for THF) he is off by 0 by level 4 or 6, against Maul (amongst the best for pure damage) he is only off by 1.5 damage.
TWF also have the luxury of chosing two diffrent weapon groups to be specalized in, Axes for power and Light blades for defense for instance.
Additionally, the TWF feats as is blend into powers as is. adding an at will that gives two attacks, won't blend into it, it in fact could lead to it bending, as suddenly the TWF can have up to 4 at wills, this is in addition to the fact that encoutner and daily totals slowly creep up, and those you inflict more damage on without dual wielding, bit by bit having a 'attack twice' power slips you behind the power scale.
All of this is stuff to avoid, if you want to make it better overall without breaking it, focus on a feat chain (adding feats to Paragon and Epic levels) that further it along.
Like Two Weapon Ripotse that gives you combat advantage on foes who miss you with an attack. Or Two Weapon Cleave that has the preq's of Cleave and allows you to deal your off hand weapon damage to your secondary target Rather than strength.
I will add with the feats, always be sure that you don't make the ranger class Too good through them.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2008 - 2:56PM
#230
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
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TWF also have the luxury of chosing two diffrent weapon groups to be specalized in, Axes for power and Light blades for defense for instance.
Provided they are within the same Attribute on the Weapon Groups. Here he is focusing on Strength, Dexterity and Constitution or dropping Strength (at this point in the games history) what would be the point of splitting off this way? Perhaps I'm missing something here.
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