By the same token, it's useful to be able to build a "balanced" party with only oriental/chi-focused classes. Placing the samurai as a defender and the monk as a leader makes that happen. (Yes, I know that there's no controller in this set up, but we've got a dearth of controllers in 4e right now anyways, so let's not open that can of worms just yet.)
I agree that a samurai can and should deal some impressive damage, but damage is not the only quality of a striker. Mobility and fragility are also hallmarks of a striker, and I have trouble assigning either of those qualities to a samurai. Strikers, as a rule, "can dish it out but they can't take it". Can you visualize a samurai retreating, ever, under any circumstances? Heck, I think it would be characterful for a samurai to have epic-level daily abilities that trigger upon his death... or upon the use of his last healing surge, at least.
I agree that the Ki/Chi power source should have a ballanced array of roles, which is why I changed my vote for the samurai from Striker to Leader.
However, sometimes a given role just fits a concept well. Striker, in this case, would not be inappropriate for any of these concepts. It's less a case of "everyone wants to play the Striker!" than it is "the Striker is a role which is at least somewhat appropriate for virtually all warrior-style classes."
I still hold that the samurai would make a poor Defender without giving them A) some kind of artificial defense boost, B) massive HP, or C) both. One of the most essential traits of the Defender is that they can wade into a large group of enemies and come out reletively unscathed. Samurai, from a cinematic standpoint, are really more about making a single fatal strike and not having to worry about retaliation. In fact, I would say mobility and fragility are inherent to the concept, at least insofar as samurai tend not to be nicked and scraped to death so much as cut down in one blow. So, I still hold that the Striker role fits better, though I think Leader would be more ballanced against the other classes, and no less apropriate.
Awesome_Dude wrote:
Only Mortal Kombat has inherently supernatural ninjas.
Actually, a lot of ninja movies (particularly Chinese films) ascribe ninjas inherent supernatural powers.
This email is to confirm that we have stopped automatic billing for your subscription. Your subscription will continue to be active until the expiration date listed below.
I still hold that the samurai would make a poor Defender without giving them A) some kind of artificial defense boost...
I'm actually leaning towards this. In my initial post I'd listed resilience as a trait of samurai; I'm thinking less about the ability to take punches and more about the "Way of the Warrior" Zen stoicism that fictional samurai (and real samurai, for that matter) exhibit.
To reflect that this isn't so much a matter of HP as much as will and focus, I'd like for that resilience to be reflected in ways other than healing surges. A power that lets you roll fortitude saves as will save for the encounter is good; a daily power that does not permit you to be bloodied makes sense, too, although that might create problems. I'm trying to suggest a sort of resilience where you take damage, but it just doesn't matter, because you're one with the universe. Whether that's mechanically possible is an open question, but...
Not a bad discussion going. I'm pleased this idea's got legs.
As to regarding whether ki/chi might be racist, or whether these characters could be deemed martial or arcane: I'm using the chi source as a defining point for these characters for a somewhat "meta" sort of reason. If you define them all as having the same power source, then you can define them all as being part of the same set for publication of campaign setting purposes (not that I'm suggesting that's my ultimate goal, but it;s how my brain works). It's not my intent to be racist, but it is my intent to take classes from a specific culture and group them under a specific power source.
But those two ideas are mutually exclusive. As soon as you segregate based on culture, you're discriminating (not really against anybody, but it is based on race). I don't think you're a racist or idiot, though (I best make this disclaimer because apparently I act like everybody else is an idiot while discussing stuff). Samurai was just a title, and if made into a class would simply imply a mundane (if badass) warrior, hence the martial power source. Ki as a supernatural force has never been associated with the samurai, at least.
As for ninjas, Pilgrim_Shadow mentioned some Chinese movies where the ninjas have magical powers. My retort would be "But is it ki?" I've only seen a handful of people associate ninjas with ki, and only one or two that weren't on this forum. I guess I'm just sort of confused as to why that is.
The monk, I think should also have the martial power source, because I'd prefer people to be able to play a pugilist or unarmed warrior without massive reflavoring.
By the same token, it's useful to be able to build a "balanced" party with only oriental/chi-focused classes. Placing the samurai as a defender and the monk as a leader makes that happen. (Yes, I know that there's no controller in this set up, but we've got a dearth of controllers in 4e right now anyways, so let's not open that can of worms just yet.)
But why can't the arcane, martial and divine power sources be eastern as well? There are loads upon loads of divine figures in eastern mythology, and spellcasters aren't all that rare either. Not to mention warriors of about the same caliber as us inferior western gaijin have.
I agree that a samurai can and should deal some impressive damage, but damage is not the only quality of a striker. Mobility and fragility are also hallmarks of a striker, and I have trouble assigning either of those qualities to a samurai. Strikers, as a rule, "can dish it out but they can't take it". Can you visualize a samurai retreating, ever, under any circumstances? Heck, I think it would be characterful for a samurai to have epic-level daily abilities that trigger upon his death... or upon the use of his last healing surge, at least.
Yes, samurai would make for better defenders. The whole marking shtick fits an iaijutsu challenge. In fact, looking over the Fighter class, I could totally see it as a samurai.
Well, a samurai with a spear, at least. I'm looking for good maneuvers to use with a spear.
But why can't the arcane, martial and divine power sources be eastern as well? There are loads upon loads of divine figures in eastern mythology, and spellcasters aren't all that rare either. Not to mention warriors of about the same caliber as us inferior western gaijin have.
The Ki power source is listed in the PHB as one that will be used in future books, presumably with the Monk in mind. I don't see any problem with houseruling that Ki = Martial, but Wizards at least seems to think they're different. As for why other power sources can't be used, I don't see any reason why they couldn't. Not all Asian classes have to be Ki. It does fit better with Asian classes than western ones, though.
Also, Irving, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there are any Fort/Will saves in 4e. You have Fort and Will defense, which works like AC, and you have saves, which are just a roughly 50/50 pass/fail check, but you wouldn't have a Fort save. Do you mean allowing the samurai to use their Will defense in place of Fort? That could work, although I'd be careful about swapping out defenses too much, as it means that in effect any bonus to Will also suddenly applies to Fort. That could potentially have ballance issues.
As for the daily power that prevents being bloodied, I think it would work better as an Encounter power (or even a class feature) that prevents the samurai from being dropped below their bloodied score on a single hit. Not sure how useful that would be; any thoughts?
This email is to confirm that we have stopped automatic billing for your subscription. Your subscription will continue to be active until the expiration date listed below.
Well if it prevents you from letting a hit bloody you it can turn 20+ damage potentiall into 0. If you're close to being bloodied in the first place. Not that that's uncool, It would just not be a low-level power.
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.
No, MArtial 'You use your training to use weapons to do X' Ki 'Haranassing years of study your body achieves X' (or language similar) Arcane 'You have have learned, have made a pact, et cetra to manipulate arcane power.' Divine 'Your faith in your god allows you to do X' Psi 'By focusing your inner power you achieve X'
Ki is kind of between Psi/Martial in my mind, Just like I expect Elemental to between Arcane and Primal.
Ki is simply redundant (and racist). So maybe it could sound more mystical, but when it all boils down it's still perfectly within the bounds of the martial, and martial was never implied to be mundane (in fact, we need an absolutely redonkulous martial character).
There is a difference from Martial and Ki though. A huge one. That or find me a single blast power in the current martial powers, a true blast that doesn't rely on weapons to achieve it.
Let's just say that my image of the martial power source is that just because we can't do it in real life, doesn't mean D&D creatures shouldn't be able to.
Oooo, so basically to you a martial power that allows guys to shoot fireballs is ok?
Basically, they manipulate magical energy that is already there. Pretty much within the "established fluff" (i.e. common notions) of the mystical ninja. Only Mortal Kombat has inherently supernatural ninjas. I've only heard D&D nerds making a connection between ninjas and ki, at least.
Naruto leaps out. Oh and then there is the Mythbusters they did on Ninja's supposed powers. Historically Ninjas have been ascribed with a multitude of mystic abilities. Any ninja class that doesn't have those is failing the ninja. They have supernatural techniques. In 2E this wasn't even handled similar to wizards and their spells.
You can call it "ki blast," but the fact remains that if it comes from within their body, it's just an exaggerated martial exploit.
No. Every martial exploit is either ran off a skill or a weapon. A Ki blast won't run off of either.
You don't seriously think Ki Blast should be written as 2[w] or 1[w] do you?
That form of damage determination on Ki Blast would make me... *loud retching*
Seriously Ki=/=Martial. Ki is about manipulating the flows of energy within you. Martial is about ******* bashing someone with a weapon. Where do you see the overlap?
I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.
No, MArtial 'You use your training to use weapons to do X'
Nope.
Player's Handbook]Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power. Martial powers are called exploits.
There is absolutely no reason for ki not to be lumped in with martial. I hope WotC abandons their plans to do ki, because only the monk even remotely fits it, and that class should be represented by the martial power source so as to not stereotype martial artists and, basically, force players into playing a Kung Fu movie character if they want to play an unarmed warrior wrote:
Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power. Martial powers are called exploits.[/quote] There is absolutely no reason for ki not to be lumped in with martial. I hope WotC abandons their plans to do ki, because only the monk even remotely fits it, and that class should be represented by the martial power source so as to not stereotype martial artists and, basically, force players into playing a Kung Fu movie character if they want to play an unarmed warrior.
Ki 'Haranassing years of study your body achieves X' (or language similar)
Fits with the martial power source as described.
Ki is kind of between Psi/Martial in my mind, Just like I expect Elemental to between Arcane and Primal.
I'd imagine the primal power source to be more in between the elemental and arcane ones, but whatever. Not important.
There is a difference from Martial and Ki though. A huge one. That or find me a single blast power in the current martial powers, a true blast that doesn't rely on weapons to achieve it.
Just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be invented. That's just bad logic.
Oooo, so basically to you a martial power that allows guys to shoot fireballs is ok?
If he's an azer or something, sure. Otherwise, fire is an external force that you can't manipulate to any appreciable extent with your own body or mind, meaning it's more within the realm of everything else.
Naruto leaps out. Oh and then there is the Mythbusters they did on Ninja's supposed powers. Historically Ninjas have been ascribed with a multitude of mystic abilities. Any ninja class that doesn't have those is failing the ninja. They have supernatural techniques. In 2E this wasn't even handled similar to wizards and their spells.
What does that have to do with ki?
No. Every martial exploit is either ran off a skill or a weapon. A Ki blast won't run off of either.
"Every X is" is very different from "every X must be." You haven't proven why martial exploits must be based on weapons.
You don't seriously think Ki Blast should be written as 2[w] or 1[w] do you?
I sure don't! But see previous point plus PHB quote.
There is absolutely no reason for ki not to be lumped in with martial. I hope WotC abandons their plans to do ki.
Ki is from the chinesse Qi, which is closest to western ideas of vitalism. Its the idea that the body is rife with unique and special energy, leaning how to harnass and exploit these is very diffrent from martial powers as presented. Is it possible to lump Ki into Martial, sure. Its also possibly to toss Primal into Divine and Elemental into Arcane (From whats being ascribed to both so far anyway). There is already diffrences.
Just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't be invented. That's just spurious reasoning.
Personally I find the idea of a martial blast silly and Pointless, Especially as Ki is an analog for soul energy. Even the PHB agrees. Do I think Samurai should be Ki? No. Ninjas, Monks Yes. They train and use dedication to do things beyond the well trained body. Its like the diffrence from Spiderman's strength to Wolverines. Wolverine is very strong for a human. Spiderman is just a bit beyond that.
If he's an azer or something, sure. Otherwise, fire is an external force that you can't manipulate to any appreciable extent with your own body or mind, meaning it's more within the realm of everything else.
But you think its ok to turn invisible as a martial exploit? Or to walk on Water?
What does that have to do with ki?
Its simple, its beyond Martial, its not Forumalitic like Arcane Therfor its something else.
"Every X is" is very different from "every X must be." You haven't proven why martial exploits must be based on weapons.
Its rather simple really there is upper echelon of what Martial allows, once you surpass that then you move to Ki. Ki is Very similar to Martial, I grant you, but its also close to Arcane or Divine. And probably fairly close Psionic.
But those two ideas are mutually exclusive. As soon as you segregate based on culture, you're discriminating (not really against anybody, but it is based on race). I don't think you're a racist or idiot, though (I best make this disclaimer because apparently I act like everybody else is an idiot while discussing stuff). Samurai was just a title, and if made into a class would simply imply a mundane (if badass) warrior, hence the martial power source. Ki as a supernatural force has never been associated with the samurai, at least.
I agree here. I actually see some european archtypes that fit in Ki as a supernatural source. It is a stronger eastern grouping, as in the west Vitalism is mostly associated with the former theory of illness, and was never studied to the degree that the east did. There is certain groups (The Essences, Gnostics) that to one degree or another did attempt to exploit the internal energy of their body. They would be Ki too as the PHB puts it harness the power of soul energy (Ki)
As for ninjas, Pilgrim_Shadow mentioned some Chinese movies where the ninjas have magical powers. My retort would be "But is it ki?" I've only seen a handful of people associate ninjas with ki, and only one or two that weren't on this forum. I guess I'm just sort of confused as to why that is.
Because its not forumlatic nor from the gods, yet clearly a degree beyond mortals by themselves, Or at least its why I see it that way.
The monk, I think should also have the martial power source, because I'd prefer people to be able to play a pugilist or unarmed warrior without massive reflavoring.
Actually I allow a simple feat that allows unarmed strikes to be upgraded a die of damage, and count as either Light Blade (focusing more on knife hand attacks and such) or mace (pugilistic) for the purposes of exploits, and another feat that allows the replacing of Str with Dex for the purposes of unarmed combat. Allowing pugilists/unarmed warriors to have a 1d6+dex weapon and to be ok in lighter armor and still fullfill the role of defender.
But why can't the arcane, martial and divine power sources be eastern as well? There are loads upon loads of divine figures in eastern mythology, and spellcasters aren't all that rare either. Not to mention warriors of about the same caliber as us inferior western gaijin have.
I agree, its why I don't like the idea of Samurai as Ki. Ki should be Ninja, Monk, Skald. It like martial I can't see a good controller for, as the Wu Jen isn't Ki, they are Arcane. Monk as defender, Ninja as Striker, Skald as leader. Though I don't really like the term Skald for the leader the name I would prefer escapes me, but refers to followers of hippocitius.
Yes, samurai would make for better defenders. The whole marking shtick fits an iaijutsu challenge. In fact, looking over the Fighter class, I could totally see it as a samurai.
Iajutsu includes many techniques that decapite in one fluid motion. Samurai were a whole lot mobile then people give them credit, Yes they tended not to retreat, but they would move through combat zones to get to their target. I really see the Samurai as a hybrid Defender/Striker, which makes me leery of making it a full class.
Well, a samurai with a spear, at least. I'm looking for good maneuvers to use with a spear.
There is a decent class in the works on this board for spear based fighters. I think its working name is Lancer.
