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5 years ago ::
Jun 15, 2008 - 12:10PM
#31
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Almost every DM I have played with that runs standard monsters doesn't mess with standard monsters. The magic Item Threshold is one level +1 one of level one of level -1
Fighter doesn't care about wands so will sunder the evil wizard with one.
Warlocks though care about wands, suddenly the warlock instead of being on mark is behind the mark.
On the same token, Warlords probably won't care about the same weapons as fighters, and so are more apt to destroy items that doesn't fit them.
On the flip side, if I (as a DM) sunder all my PC's gear, I'm liable to lose players because of it. Magic Items are becoming increasingly personal equipment.
Sunder if brought back, will occupy the same 'don't do it moron' place it did 3e. You shouldn't waste your turn sundering mundane equipment, and sundering magic items puts behind the expectations of the MM. Which I bet is why it was removed in the first place.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 15, 2008 - 12:13PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jul 20, 2006
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 Optimal this... optimal that.... whoop de doo. It's up to the DM to balance the game and if you're sundering items they expect you to have, they'll find a way for you to find those items in a different manner. The magic threshold in 4e means monsters are balanced even if they're not wielding the +3 longsword or if they are. They attack the same. It's already factored in.
Much as I hate to break into this discussion, Aluman has a point.
The math behind 3e assumes that you will have appropriate treasure for your level, you will have certain pluses and statboosters for your level, etc. Unlike 4e, however, where they explicitly state this and try to show DMs their reasoning, nowhere in the 3e DMG do they say "CR is calculated with the expectation that if you're level X, you'll have this plus to your sword, that much of a boost to Dex, and so on."
Thus, while you can leave it up to the DM to keep parties at the right power level--which is fine; that's part of a DM's job--there are many 3e DMs who either haven't DMed 3e long enough or simply don't realize that if you sunder that +2 sword they need to provide it in some other way, that if you don't have the right equipment the CR system breaks down as challenges grow slightly to extremely more difficult, depending on what you lack.
So while sundering magic items and party balance concerning it isn't a big deal in 4e (item rarity and personal connection to items being a completely different issue), you shouldn't fault him for his analysis/criticism of the 3e equipment paradigm, which from what I've seen is pretty accurate. Those missing +1's can add up under a DM who doesn't realize that CR expects you to have them.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 15, 2008 - 12:24PM
#33
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Actually the +X's from magic equipment in 4e is much more critical than 3e, there is virtually no other way to get these bonuses.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2008 - 10:03AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jul 20, 2006
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Actually the +X's from magic equipment in 4e is much more critical than 3e, there is virtually no other way to get these bonuses.
The +Xs are harder to obtain, but the books tell you exactly what +X you're expected to have at any given point, and you're only required to have one or two sources of +X for any given roll--no more +1 AC from a ring, +8 from armor, +2 from an amulet, etc. Thus, if you sunder all of someone's magic item in 4e,
--they're only missing a few +X that you can quickly recoup, as opposed to a 10-20 point drop in modifiers,
--the DM knows that, if necessary, he should ensure that they get another item for encounters to be at the right difficulty level, and
--sundering doesn't become the go-to tactic because opponents are practically invincible with their Christmas tree of 13+ items.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2008 - 11:23AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Mar 18, 2005
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Still, murder seems a slightly harsh response to destruction of property that isn't even yours yet.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2008 - 1:19PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2004
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Those are actually pretty decent powers. Question: Must they be taken in lieu of a class power? Or are they free for everyone?
As I was in 3.X, I'm leery of Sunder and Disarm. They're either too effective (shutting someone down completely for the low, low cost of an action that can be done at will), or completely irrelevant (most monsters don't use weapons or armor).
Also, since a monster's AC is no longer broken down into +X from armor, +X from dex, etc, it might create a pause in the action when you try to sunder a monster's armor.
Still, I approve of the spirit of these powers. Very well done.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2008 - 1:51PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2002
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Still, murder seems a slightly harsh response to destruction of property that isn't even yours yet.
This is what I keep thinking, too. 
I've heard that a bit on the boards lately: "I've KILLED other people on my team over these disagreements of strategy!" Good for you, Chaotic Evil.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2008 - 2:38PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2002
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For me, it ends up being one of those things where it seems silly to not be able to break someone's weapon or take it away. These are both effective and often-used tactics in real-life combat. They also present a way of effectively defeating enemies without necessarily killing them, which I'm always in favor of (I like adventure more than violence). The Disciple of Doom starts waving around his Wand of Whoop-A$$ and talking about how he's going to use it to conquer the world and raise interest rates, yadda yadda, until someone goes YOINK! and takes it away.
Should it be easy? No. But it should be something that the villain (and the PCs!) has to prepare for -- or else be unprepared.
And the risk of the PCs losing their own magic stuff is just the risk they have to face -- along with losing their lives, their limbs, their minds ...
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5 years ago ::
Jun 17, 2008 - 3:47PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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It seems that Fort should be useful for avoiding trips and disarms. Somone tries to knock my weapon away, I hold on tighter (like athletics vs. Fort to escape a grapple). Someone tries to push me over, I stand firm.
I do think trip shouldn't have the weapon modifier, but I'd keep the -2 to hit. It does slightly discourage it, and it could be a very good tactic when one party member can take someone to the ground and everyone else gets combat advantage.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 17, 2008 - 11:51PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2007
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Yeah, I'm with Aria, Sunder should be in the game and I plan on putting these into any and all games I run.
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