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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 3:40PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2008
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Actually 10 times out of 20 (at least) you are better in armor+shield then parrying with this mechanic you presented. Notice that taking 10 or 20 on a skill is luxury not a given.
You're absolutely right - 50% of the time, you're better off not using this power. Thus, it becomes a role-playing decision. The point is that it's not an "obvious" power to use every single time it's your turn. I think most people would rather inflict damage than have a 10% chance to do base damage. However, if I'm starting to get low on HP, maybe I'll take that chance.
No more than a rapier fighter pushing aside a blade and immediately attacking the opponent. Its actually Harder to counter attack with two weapons then one, as they have a tendency to get in each other's way.
That's exactly why the critical roll is required, along with the TW fighting feats.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 3:45PM
#32
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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You're absolutely right - 50% of the time, you're better off not using this power. Thus, it becomes a role-playing decision.
4E Strives Away from fluff feats, all feats need to give an advantage to the player consistently. This feat doesn't. You cannot engineer a situation where the parry choice is statisically superior to just hitting and allowing the guy to try and hit you.
The point is that it's not an "obvious" power to use every single time it's your turn. I think most people would rather inflict damage than have a 10% chance to do base damage. However, if I'm starting to get low on HP, maybe I'll take that chance.
If you are getting low on HP someone should heal you, if your leaders are not your leaders are failing at their role. I play palladium system a lot, they have a parry mechanic built into the combat. Their combat ties goes to the defender, DnD ties go to the attacker.
That's exactly why the critical roll is required, along with the TW fighting feats.
So you are going tom ake a feat that allows people with light blades to automatically counter attack on miss? As believe me with a dagger if someone misses me I can easily slip the knife up the arm and cut them.
Or what about heavy blades?
The idea that TWF = Superior Counter Attacking is not in alignment at all with real world, and its not really with cinematic two weapon fighting.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 3:50PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2008
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So you are going tom ake a feat that allows people with light blades to automatically counter attack on miss? As believe me with a dagger if someone misses me I can easily slip the knife up the arm and cut them.
Um...where in the world is this coming from? There's no "automatic" involved here at all.
PC uses parry for their round action. Creature attacks. Compare melee attack rolls. If PC > Creature, no damage. If PC rolls crit and has TWF/TWD, they get to attempt an attack in return.
And I think the cinematic tradition of blocking a blade with your main hand and thrusting with your off-hand weapon is common.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 3:51PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2008
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4E Strives Away from fluff feats, all feats need to give an advantage to the player consistently. This feat doesn't. You cannot engineer a situation where the parry choice is statisically superior to just hitting and allowing the guy to try and hit you.
Sure you can...if your AC is lower than your potential melee attack, then it is statistically superior. And I'm not sure that I agree there are no "fluff feats" in 4E, not to mention this is intended as a Power, not a Feat.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 3:54PM
#35
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Um...where in the world is this coming from? There's no "automatic" involved here at all.
Lightblades are Much Much easier to get coutner attacks from then dual wielding. Like I said, with very little training I can use a dagger/knife weapon and cut a man's arm to ribbons when he misses me.
PC uses parry for their round action. Creature attacks. Compare melee attack rolls. If PC > Creature, no damage. If PC rolls crit and has TWF/TWD, they get to attempt an attack in return.
Have you ever played Palladium? they have parry mechanics tied itno the system, and the combat takes forever. Its needless slowing down of the game.
And I think the cinematic tradition of blocking a blade with your main hand and thrusting with your off-hand weapon is common.
Thats not a full counter attack though, thats Two Weapon Defense coupled with a successful strike on your initiative. A counter attack should happen at almost the same time as they thrust at you. (In my mind anyway)
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 3:57PM
#36
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Sure you can...if your AC is lower than your potential melee attack, then it is statistically superior. And I'm not sure that I agree there are no "fluff feats" in 4E, not to mention this is intended as a Power, not a Feat.
Your AC starts at 10+everything else. Most classes at first level can get AC of 17 or 18 easily, even wizards and warlock can get 15's and 16's
To make it worthwhile their attack bonus has to be +11 for a wizard to even Think about it at least unless the player isn't good with math.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 3:59PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2008
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Your AC starts at 10+everything else. Most classes at first level can get AC of 17 or 18 easily, even wizards and warlock can get 15's and 16's
To make it worthwhile their attack bonus has to be +11 for a wizard to even Think about it at least unless the player isn't good with math.
Um...then the wizard doesn't choose this ability? Seems awful straightforward to me that I wouldn't expect a wizard to be using this power anyhow - they (generally) shouldn't be regularly engaging in melee combat...
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 4:00PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2007
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To snarky and Aluman,
Calm the heck down.
@ Snarky:
Way to grammar nit pick! You are focusing on a word or two rather than my sentences. First, I was talking about the counter attack as a mechanic, not about your counter maneuver. Sorry if I was unclear about that. This whole thread is about fixing your presented idea vs. scrapping the concept entirely. I do not feel you are taking the correct approach to the counter attack as a mechanic, so I ignored your initial proposal for the concept and presented a bare bones version of how I would do it. If you want to complain, then insult my proposal instead of nitpicking at words I used to setup (not create) my own idea.
@ Aluman:
Did I say it was perfect? No. Did I say it was God's gift to the game? No. So calm down and try being constructive rather than destructive. No one is forcing you to use the feat power I posted. And last I checked, you were not the one asking for a counter attack ability. I am guilty of picking feats, skills, powers, weapons, armor, and heck even classes that are not the best possible choice mechanically because I like the FLAVOR of those choices. You don't like the power? Then why not offer an improvement? How about upping the damage to 2[w] or 3[w] + mod? Not enough? Then make it a special encounter power you can use additional times per tier. Not hard to balance things once they actually exist.
I do apologize if anything in here sounds rude.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 4:01PM
#39
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Date Joined:
May 21, 2008
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Um...then the wizard doesn't choose this ability? Seems awful straightforward to me that I wouldn't expect a wizard to be using this power anyhow - they (generally) shouldn't be regularly engaging in melee combat...
Wizards have the lowest threshold for this power to be useful. A fighter, ranger, rogue, paladin with his 17AC needs his attack bonus to be +12 to have a reasonable chance of better AC without a good chance of worse AC.
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5 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2008 - 4:03PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2008
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Lightblades are Much Much easier to get coutner attacks from then dual wielding. Like I said, with very little training I can use a dagger/knife weapon and cut a man's arm to ribbons when he misses me.
Yep, you're exactly right - this ability isn't for every class or for every player. It has a specific application for a specific type of character, just like most every other power that is out there.
Have you ever played Palladium? they have parry mechanics tied itno the system, and the combat takes forever. Its needless slowing down of the game.
Yes, I have. And that's why I'm trying to keep this simple. You choose to parry, and you have a 1:20, 1:10, or 3:20 chance to roll an attack. There's no slowdown in this mechanic - you're postponing what would normally be an attack roll, and you don't have a guarantee that it will happen.
Thats not a full counter attack though, thats Two Weapon Defense coupled with a successful strike on your initiative. A counter attack should happen at almost the same time as they thrust at you. (In my mind anyway)
Now we're just toying with semantics - to me, that's a parry with a counterattack, not a Riposte Strike. If you want to do Riposte Strikes, you want to be a rogue. If you want to be a fighter who is skilled with his blade and deflects blows with your weapon (and maybe do some damage), you'd use this ability.
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